Froome and Wiggins TUEs

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oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
brailsfords statement is a whole pack of lies the utter contempt that this man has got for the cycling community to come out with this total rubbish is beyond belief . it makes one wonder who is running british cycling. its always the same once SKY get their fingers in the pie it becomes corrupt, as brailsfords just one of their puppets. and as for BRAD very sad that he ends it all under this cloud but its of his own making
It would be unfortunate if the lawyers saw that libellous statement. There's a difference between conjecture and provable evidence for statements in the public domain. Lucky this is not the USA, the writ server would probably be on the doorstep in the morning. Someone called out as a liar has every right to redress through the courts if they wish.
 

rich p

ridiculous old lush
Location
Brighton
It would be unfortunate if the lawyers saw that libellous statement. There's a difference between conjecture and provable evidence for statements in the public domain. Lucky this is not the USA, the writ server would probably be on the doorstep in the morning. Someone called out as a liar has every right to redress through the courts if they wish.
I think not...

FREE SPEECH V. DEFAMATION
In the United States, federal defamation law is closely tied to the First Amendment. As a result, federal slander and libel laws are more defendant-friendly in the U.S. than those in common law countries, like the U.K. and Canada. In short, opinion is not considered defamation in the U.S. That being said, false statements of fact that harm the reputation of an individual or business, aren't protected under Constitutional Free Speech provisions.

Sir DB would also have to prove that he was materially affected by the post which would be a bit of a stretch!

It's why Merkans used to come over here for libel tourism cases IIRC
 

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
I think not...

FREE SPEECH V. DEFAMATION
In the United States, federal defamation law is closely tied to the First Amendment. As a result, federal slander and libel laws are more defendant-friendly in the U.S. than those in common law countries, like the U.K. and Canada. In short, opinion is not considered defamation in the U.S. That being said, false statements of fact that harm the reputation of an individual or business, aren't protected under Constitutional Free Speech provisions.

Sir DB would also have to prove that he was materially affected by the post which would be a bit of a stretch!

It's why Merkans used to come over here for libel tourism cases IIRC
Well if that's correct then I'm factually incorrect, and admit so. However it does not alter the fact of people posting unpleasant comments on social media. My view is if you would not say it to their face or in writing with your name and contact details attached, then don't say it on a forum. When I was young (and God was a boy!) this was called common courtesy, something which seems to be a bit in decline.
 

rich p

ridiculous old lush
Location
Brighton
I think this section, and this thread in particular, are fair game for a bit of speculating.
And I say that as someone who doesn't believe a lot of the hysteria posted above.
If it goes over the top with wild accusations with zero circumstantial evidence then I'd agree. Stopping looking at it is the best defence against trolling, if that's what you think it is.
 

Dogtrousers

Kilometre nibbler
There was a piece in the Evening Standard this evening that went over this whole snafu and concluded that Brailsford is either incompetent or unethical, and either way will be lucky to keep his job.

I'm not sure what my opinion is. I wonder what Sky (the sponsors) are thinking about this? Hoping it will blow over I guess. This is getting less publicity than the TdF does, so they may not be too concerned.
 

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
Many if not most decongestants contain banned chemicals - the pro's know this ! Even as a rank amateur I wouldn't take them if feeling ill in the 'season'. This was over 20 years ago.
 

smutchin

Cat 6 Racer
Location
The Red Enclave
Many if not most decongestants contain banned chemicals - the pro's know this !

This would be a legitimate reason for shipping the package from home rather than buying over the counter locally - sticking to known and tested products is the only way to guarantee avoiding taking something you shouldn't. The case of Alain Baxter comes to mind.

However, it doesn't answer the question of why he was taking it in the first place.
 
This would be a legitimate reason for shipping the package from home rather than buying over the counter locally - sticking to known and tested products is the only way to guarantee avoiding taking something you shouldn't. The case of Alain Baxter comes to mind.

However, it doesn't answer the question of why he was taking it in the first place.
Or why Sirdave spent weeks dodging questions.
Transparency my arse.
 

Viking

Senior Member
IMHO, a lot of the confusion / misunderstanding / misleading (call it what you want) is down to people being too quick to give "obvious" answers to questions without conducting a detailed investigation e.g. if after a stage,the question about what cassette the rider was using was asked, it would be easy to say 11-28 'cos that is what they normally use. If it subsequently turned out to be 11-25, the Daily Mail and its adherents here would be shouting "cover up ! / lies!!" As for Cope's trip, it appears he was making the journey anyway, so why not use him to bring the package. When I was working on a project in Zurich, I asked if anyone coming out in the next couple of days could bring a couple of USB memory sticks with them. Sure, I could have gone round the corner to Banhofstrasse and got them there but a) it was extra hassle and b) company policy to only use approved USB sticks (a bit like the Alain Baxter point mentioned above). However according to the Daily Mail and its followers that would have been presented as a 1000 mile round trip to deliver USB sticks that could easily be sourced locally.

Questions have been asked if Brailsford is lying and yet AFAIK, none have been asked if Lawton is being completely accurate with his recollections (any recordings, contemporaneous notes, witnesses etc?).

After (and before) all of this I believe the following.

Sky was not the well oiled, smooth machine as it was reputed to be (by the Press!). I always thought this as exemplified by the "No plan B" approach.

Sutton may well be very good at his coaching job but he should not be in charge of an operation. This is not a mean-spirited comment, but being "High heid yin" requires a different skill set.

A number of journalists want to be like a latter day Walsh except Walsh who feels grieved that he wasn't told about the TUEs (it would have been odd if had been but Thomas and other team mates weren't) and is trying to regain some sort of witch finder general reputation (he should have a good look at rugby if he wants some high percentage drug use headlines).

The Daily Mail-esque presentation of the questions will lead to a general reduction in information available and certainly a time lag if all it does is allow off the cuff answers to be taken out of context. In this regard, Sky are quite correct to batten down the hatches and only release fully verified information when it suits them, not the Daily Mail, Matt Lawton or the Katie Hopkins look alike on the forums

.. and for the record, I am queasy about TUEs in general, don't like Sky's racing style, effective though it is and think that BC needs a complete management overhaul.
 
IMHO, a lot of the confusion / misunderstanding / misleading (call it what you want) is down to people being too quick to give "obvious" answers to questions without conducting a detailed investigation e.g. if after a stage,the question about what cassette the rider was using was asked, it would be easy to say 11-28 'cos that is what they normally use. If it subsequently turned out to be 11-25, the Daily Mail and its adherents here would be shouting "cover up ! / lies!!" As for Cope's trip, it appears he was making the journey anyway, so why not use him to bring the package. When I was working on a project in Zurich, I asked if anyone coming out in the next couple of days could bring a couple of USB memory sticks with them. Sure, I could have gone round the corner to Banhofstrasse and got them there but a) it was extra hassle and b) company policy to only use approved USB sticks (a bit like the Alain Baxter point mentioned above). However according to the Daily Mail and its followers that would have been presented as a 1000 mile round trip to deliver USB sticks that could easily be sourced locally.

Questions have been asked if Brailsford is lying and yet AFAIK, none have been asked if Lawton is being completely accurate with his recollections (any recordings, contemporaneous notes, witnesses etc?).

After (and before) all of this I believe the following.

Sky was not the well oiled, smooth machine as it was reputed to be (by the Press!). I always thought this as exemplified by the "No plan B" approach.

Sutton may well be very good at his coaching job but he should not be in charge of an operation. This is not a mean-spirited comment, but being "High heid yin" requires a different skill set.

A number of journalists want to be like a latter day Walsh except Walsh who feels grieved that he wasn't told about the TUEs (it would have been odd if had been but Thomas and other team mates weren't) and is trying to regain some sort of witch finder general reputation (he should have a good look at rugby if he wants some high percentage drug use headlines).

The Daily Mail-esque presentation of the questions will lead to a general reduction in information available and certainly a time lag if all it does is allow off the cuff answers to be taken out of context. In this regard, Sky are quite correct to batten down the hatches and only release fully verified information when it suits them, not the Daily Mail, Matt Lawton or the Katie Hopkins look alike on the forums

.. and for the record, I am queasy about TUEs in general, don't like Sky's racing style, effective though it is and think that BC needs a complete management overhaul.

There's nothing "Daily Mail" about asking Sirdave what was in the package.
Nor is there anything "Daily Mail" about some of the issues raised by the Daily Mail and many other journalists.
Sirdave has lost a lot of credibility, part of that is due in part to people taking everything he has said at face value in the past just because he was Sirdave.

Sky are not "quite correct to batten down the hatches" because all it does is fuel the fire, especially when they then try to present everything as tickety-boo and say "move along, nothing to see here" despite there quite evidently being something to see.
 

SWSteve

Guru
Location
Bristol...ish
Smutch makes a good comment above it the decongestant b img transported, you know that that you're getting is a product that's been tested. One other reason, how long do you think it would take a story about a Team Sky doctor collecting a prescription based Decongestant from a French pharmacy to appear in l'equipe
 

gk09

Senior Member
Location
York
Whilst there are many legitimate reasons for why things might have happened as they did and on the face of it they could be easily explained, the question remains that if that is the case, why weren't they answered straight away and this all nipped in the bud?
 
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