Get some f*****g lights!!!!

[Flying_Monkey]

Not actually true. In the case of car lights it's true because the reflectors are a part of the light cluster. But I certainly notice those reflective triangles which denote a trailer, even on trailers with very bright LEDs fitted. And, regardless of how bright a cyclist's lights are, a hi vis (see my post above for a definition) tabard is noticeable and helps a driver to judge distance in a way that a single light - no matter how bright it is - doesn't.

Thanks, Rhythm Thief, it is good to have the view of a professional driver. I guess the judging of distance thing must be what is being considered important by the drivers who have approached me to say 'thanks'. I have noticed myself how hard it is to judge distance from even quite powerful rear bike LEDs.

 

[BentMikey]

Not actually true. In the case of car lights it's true because the reflectors are a part of the light cluster. But I certainly notice those reflective triangles which denote a trailer, even on trailers with very bright LEDs fitted. And, regardless of how bright a cyclist's lights are, a hi vis (see my post above for a definition) tabard is noticeable and helps a driver to judge distance in a way that a single light - no matter how bright it is - doesn't.

As you're such a hiviz diehard, I'll have to leave it at disagreeing with you.

My point remains that hiviz is a waste of effort. Being seen is better achieved with bright lights. Being seen isn't the cyclist's problem 99% of the time, it's having drivers care enough to not bully us out of the way/pull out in front of us/overtake too closely.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

As you're such a high-viz diehard, I'll have to leave it at disagreeing with you.

It's purely based on my experience of what's most visible from behind the wheel in the dark.

 

[BentMikey]

It's your opinion, and I'm sceptical based on my own driving experience. As you'll see in my edited post, so many cyclists confuse what the problem is - it's not being seen, it's having drivers care enough to not bully you out of the way.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

In my cycling experience, the huge majority of drivers are considerate enough not to bully me out of the way. The only times I got knocked off the bike by motorists were because I hadn't been seen. Both times I was well lit up and both times were because people pulled across a road into me. Both drivers were most apologetic and one of them gave me a lift home and got me fifty quid out of the cashpoint for a new wheel. I think your "99%" quote is a huge and rather sensationalist exaggeration.

 

[BentMikey]

You can win a debate point on me not leaving it if you like. What's important to me is what works for real safety, and that's not the rabbit's foot of hiviz.

On the other hand, perhaps I'm a complete hypocrite, as my main bike is so much more visible than almost all the other bikes here.

 

[BentMikey]

LOL, we're out-editing each other here.

That last post of yours proves my point rather well. They didn't see you despite you being very visible. Most likely they simply didn't look. Neither bright lights nor hiviz would have helped at all if the motorist didn't look. If they had looked, the most likely thing to catch their eye is good set of lights. [1]

Apart from this all we can do is use good cyclecraft and good anticipation, and even then that won't always save us from a collision.

[1] The effect of a powerful flashing light is awesome for being noticed by half-aware drivers. Try overtaking a long queue of traffic with an Exposure MaXx-D on flash, and you get half the motorists pulling out of your way. These are the same motorists that mostly never bother to look in their offside mirror, and most definitely will do nothing for you and your hiviz vest.

 

[gaz]

Oooooooooh hi-viz, i said this would become the new helmet debate!!!

Have a read of this test. Very very interesting read.

In test situations, in darkness with a mix of drivers, cyclists where placed on the road side wearing the following clothing in 4 different situations; a black tracksuit, a black tracksuit with fluorescent yellow cycling vest (No reflective materials), a black tracksuit plus a fluorescent yellow cycling vest that includes silver reflective material and a black tracksuit and vest with reflective materials along with 50mm wide silver reflective strips positioned on the cyclists ankles and knees.
The results are very interesting, only 2% of the cyclists that wore just black where identified, 15% of the cyclists that wore a fluorescent vest where identified, 50% of the cyclists that wore the vest with reflective material where identified and a staggering 90% of cyclists that wore everything with reflective leg tape where identified.

The reflective vest they used in this test was similar to this.

How many cycling 'hi-viz' jackets are like this? Not many!
Things like the Hump backpack cover are good, as they have 2 big strips of reflective tape but, as the study shows, the best place to have reflective tape is on your legs, this is where the vehicles lights are going to be pointing and thats a part of you that should be moving constantly and thus makes it eye catching.

If you wear something like the above, then thats good. 50% of drivers will see you because of that. If you have some longs with good reflective patches all around (i have seen people with these and they are great!) then 90% of drivers will see you because of that.

But this

is not as good as the vest shown above, and this is the most popular thing you will see cyclists wearing when they are trying to be seen. Save your £60, and buy either a vest and some decent lights, or some decent lights!!

 

[BentMikey]

The hiviz debate has been going a long time, I remember it back in the C+ days.

Yeah, I think pedal reflectors are very good indeed, assuming you want to be identified as a cyclist. That's also the scope of the hiviz report above. Safety is not necessarily improved by being identified as a cyclist.

It's much more important to be seen as a road vehicle, IMO, not as a cyclist.

 

[asterix]

IMO only sufficient visibility for a motorist to see you should be necessary. Excessive hi-vis stuff is actually counterproductive and leads to the drivers attention being drawn towards the cyclist. This is dangerous since human's are subject to 'target fixation':

Wikpedia:
Target fixation is a process by which the brain is focused so intently on an observed object that awareness of other obstacles or hazards can diminish. Also, in an avoidance scenario, the observer can become so fixated on the target that they will forget to take the necessary action to avoid it, thus colliding with the object.



This is a common issue for motorcyclists and mountain bikers. A motorcycle or bicycle will tend to go where the rider is looking; if the rider is overly focused on an obstacle, the cycle can collide with that object simply because of the rider's focus on it, even though the rider is ostensibly trying to avoid it.

Any competent cyclist or motorcyclist knows that if you want to take a bend successfully it is important to look in the direction you want to travel.

Sure, it's true that there are some drivers with very poor eyesight but I'd suggest they are a very small minority. As a driver I dislike seeing excessively bright cyclists (and day time running lights) as they fight for my attention when I am already aware of them and would be better occupied looking for things I had not already seen.

 

[Dan B]

From behind I'm happy that people identify me as a cyclist: there's a fair chance I'll be moving slower than most of the other things I might be mistaken for (except in dense traffic, but in dense traffic there's usually a lot of light from car headlights etc) and I'm happy if they assume they'll need to take action earlier than they might if they think I'm a moped

From the side/in front, the obverse applies. I'm moving faster than most cyclists (present company excepted) and I don't want anyone about to pull out on me because they think I'm only going at walking pace. So I'd rather be an Unidentified Moving Object in that case

 

[Flying_Monkey]

It's your opinion, and I'm sceptical based on my own driving experience. As you'll see in my edited post, so many cyclists confuse what the problem is - it's not being seen, it's having drivers care enough to not bully you out of the way.

The people I was talking about are people who know me. They have neither expressed nor demonstrated any desire to bully me out of the way, and nor in my cycling experience (which is quite extensive) have most drivers seemed to want to do so in the various countries in which I have lived (including the USA, Canada, the UK and Japan). There's always a few, but then I've come across as many aggressive twerps and idiots on bikes (see above).

This doesn't have to be a 'cyclists versus the world' issue. Since I have moved to where I now live in Canada, I have talked to many drivers I know who share my commuting route. They have told me what would help them and I have told them what helps me. It has been a productive exchange, I have helped to dispel some myths and misconceptions - and mostly it is about ignorance not aggression - and so far I have never felt in any fear for my life or that I was being bullied here. Of course that's not by any means possible in every situation, but it should tell all of us something about our assumptions of 'what drivers think'.

 

[BlackPanther]

As a driver I dislike seeing excessively bright cyclists (and day time running lights) as they fight for my attention when I am already aware of them and would be better occupied looking for things I had not already seen.

But as a cyclist wouldn't you prefer a driver to see you (the most vulnerable thing on the road). I don't have lights on in the day but I wouldn't dream of riding without hi viz, because as I drive for a living, I see numerous cyclists every day. As a cyclist/motorcyclist/LGV driver, I'd like to think I am above average at spotting potential hazards, but there's a massive difference between a cyclist dressed in black, and one wearing hi viz.

 

[asterix]

But as a cyclist wouldn't you prefer a driver to see you (the most vulnerable thing on the road). I don't have lights on in the day but I wouldn't dream of riding without hi viz, because as I drive for a living, I see numerous cyclists every day. As a cyclist/motorcyclist/LGV driver, I'd like to think I am above average at spotting potential hazards, but there's a massive difference between a cyclist dressed in black, and one wearing hi viz.

Agreed:

IMO only sufficient visibility for a motorist to see you should be necessary.

Some cyclists overdo it.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

And as a bye-line for those in the Horsham/Crawley area..The Dragon at Colegate has opened again

Top news. Fancy meeting up for a pint over Xtmas?