Helmet or no helmet??

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I fear we are wasting our breath Cunebin, the nanny state is indeed here, a couple of my none cycling friends make the joke that they would never ride a bike as it's too dangerous, when I asked why they said it must be because everyone wears helmets hysterical.gif

When we escape to Cornwall it's so refreshing as the majority of people on bikes seem not to wear helmets, and I'm willing to bet that proportionally there are no more head injuries there than anywhere else.

No one seems to be answering the question as to whether they wear a helmet to drive their car given the increased risk over cycling.
 

Mark_Robson

Senior Member
This is another inappropriate and inaccurate piece of emotive rubbish

I work in one and very few of the patients we see are cyclists....... Most are pedestrians, and a large number of drivers and car passengers. The only possible conclusion is just how important helmet use in pedestrians (for instance) is!

Given the facts, do you want to give your opinion on pedestrian head injuries?
I'd be interested in what the definition of a pedestrian is and also could you provide a break down of the type of pedestrian accidents that result in head injuries?

Also, as you've pointed out in the past personal experience is no substitute for statistics, so is your opinion any more valid than Ausras?
 
I'd be interested in what the definition of a pedestrian is and also could you provide a break down of the type of pedestrian accidents that result in head injuries?

Also, as you've pointed out in the past personal experience is no substitute for statistics, so is your opinion any more valid than Ausras?

Pesdetrian is someone on foot, a cyclist is someone on a cycle and a motorist is someone in a car - fairly simple. The records do not break down the type as it does not with cyclists.

As for the use of personal anecdote - you are right, but this is simply a comparison. As always the question is why someone uses this emotive rubbish when discussing cyclits, but it is irrelavant when it comes to the groups that present more often.

The idea was that looking at head injured cyclists is a reasomn to wear a helmet, I still await a reply why looking at the same injuries more frequently does not mean we should take action in thses groups as well?

If you really need the evidence (again then non-cycling head injuries are more common I can back this up with peer reviewed evidence...

Thornhill et al:
The most common causes of injury were[sup] [/sup]falls (43%) or assaults (34%); alcohol was often involved (61%),[sup] [/sup]and a quarter reported treatment for a previous head injury.

Mayer Hillman looked at hospital admissions:

Pedestrians 39.1%
Cyclists 8.5%
Vehicle occupants 40.5%

Wardlaw in the BMJ:

The inherent risks of road cycling are trivial.[sup][/sup]Of at least 3.5 million regular cyclists in Britain, only about 10 a year are killed in rider only accidents. This compares with about 350 people younger than 75 killed each year falling down steps or tripping.[sup][/sup] .


Now what more proof do we need that more pedestrians experience more head injuries than cyclists can we explain how these injuries are not wroth considering in the emotive terms posted?

Do they hurt less?

Are they less traumatic for families?

I would welcome an explanation as to how this works
 

Mark_Robson

Senior Member
Pesdetrian is someone on foot, a cyclist is someone on a cycle and a motorist is someone in a car - fairly simple. The records do not break down the type as it does not with cyclists.

As for the use of personal anecdote - you are right, but this is simply a comparison. As always the question is why someone uses this emotive rubbish when discussing cyclits, but it is irrelavant when it comes to the groups that present more often.

The idea was that looking at head injured cyclists is a reasomn to wear a helmet, I still await a reply why looking at the same injuries more frequently does not mean we should take action in thses groups as well?

If you really need the evidence (again then non-cycling head injuries are more common I can back this up with peer reviewed evidence...

Thornhill et al:


Mayer Hillman looked at hospital admissions:



Wardlaw in the BMJ:




Now what more proof do we need that more pedestrians experience more head injuries than cyclists can we explain how these injuries are not wroth considering in the emotive terms posted?

Do they hurt less?

Are they less traumatic for families?

I would welcome an explanation as to how this works
Thanks for that, your evidence is exactly what I expected.

Pedestrian is a catch all word for anyone travelling on foot regardless of age or activivty?
When we look at the break down of accidents then 34% of head injuries were caused by assaults, 43% were caused by falls and 61% involved alcohol. So basically, slips trips and falls and assaults seem to be responsible for the majority of injuries, aggravated by booze. So if you filter out the drunks, the muggings and fights then what does that leave? The majority of accidents are caused by slips trips and falls.

You posted a link on another thread to a story about a young girl who died as a result of a fall on a icy pavement. I assume that you posted this link to somehow justify your belief that there are far more dangerous activities than cycling, but your logic is flawed. With health and safety or risk management of any type there is a hierarchy of control. You look at ways to minimise the risk and you always look at PPE as a last resort. So is it more reasonable to expect councils to maintain pavements and roads during icy periods and maintaining them to safe standard at all times or should they just rely on people wearing seat belts in cars and wearing a helmet while they travel on foot? Unfortunately it's not that easy to fit bikes with airbags or to make all road surfaces bouncy so we use helmets to help absorb and dissipate the energy of an impact.

Looking at hospital admissions, I wonder how many people carry out a journey on foot or by car each day as opposed to the percentage of people who carry out a journey on a cycle? I would imagine that cyclists make up a very small percentage of travellers yet they make up 8.5% of hospital admissions? I personally find that number alarming as it suggests that cyclists are actually more at risk than you would have us believe.

as for the opinion of Wardlaw, I would be interested to know what the definition of a regular cyclist is?

I personally think that the benefits of cycling far outweigh the risks but I do believe that there are risks. I also realise that helmets only offer limited protection in the event of an accident and I also accept that there are other ways to sustain a head injury but I can't understand why intelligent people can become so narrow minded that refuse to accept that helmets have a place in cycling.

If people don't want to wear a helmet then that's their call and I respect their point of view but I can't understand why they would try to deter others from wearing one.......and that's not aimed at you Cunobelin.
 
The unchangeable fact is the number of patients entering the doors.

The "risk" is a separate issue.

The math is simple if helmets prevent head injuries there are many groups where this intervention would be more effective than in cyclists.

Besides I wouldn't place a great faith in H&S as an argument for logic- the HSE has stated that cycle helmets are NOT classified as PPE!

Also the forum of IOSH (Institute of Occupational Safety and Health) there is a discussion which amongst the "cyclists don't pay road tax", etc is the gem:

I've just been reviewing our vehicles at work policy and as some of our employees cycle to work appointments we have included some basic requirements they have to fulfil e.g. wearing a suitable helmet, having at least third party insurance. Will now research the comptency 'test'

Again an example of ill-informed descision making.
 

jimboalee

New Member
Location
Solihull
The unchangeable fact is the number of patients entering the doors.

The "risk" is a separate issue.

The math is simple if helmets prevent head injuries there are many groups where this intervention would be more effective than in cyclists.

Besides I wouldn't place a great faith in H&S as an argument for logic- the HSE has stated that cycle helmets are NOT classified as PPE!

Also the forum of IOSH (Institute of Occupational Safety and Health) there is a discussion which amongst the "cyclists don't pay road tax", etc is the gem:



Again an example of ill-informed descision making.

Shortly after lunch yesterday, I saw my neighbours drive away from their front drive.

It was when I was leaving my driveway to take a bike ride into Birmingham city Centre to buy a couple of items I could carry in my backpack.

I arrived in Birmingham and locked my bike on the steel bars right next to St Martins Church. I walked up the incline to enter the Bull Ring shopping centre.

I paused for a moment and chose to visit Debenhams first before Selfridges. As I was walking along past 'The Teddy bear factory', there were my neighbours walking toward me!!! :ohmy:

"Hello" we said to each other. "What are the chances of that?"
 

jimboalee

New Member
Location
Solihull
"I never buy a Lottery ticket. The odds are so vast, the chances of me winning are well,,,, 14.1 million to one."

"I don't wear a crash helmet when I'm cycling. The odds are so vast, the chances of me being hit by a car, fall onto the pavement and get a head injury are well,,,, ?"
 

jimboalee

New Member
Location
Solihull
"I never buy a Lottery ticket. The odds are so vast, the chances of me winning are well,,,, 14.1 million to one."

"I don't wear a crash helmet when I'm cycling. The odds are so vast, the chances of me being hit by a car, fall onto the pavement and get a head injury are well,,,, ?"


If anyone's interested. I don't buy a lottery ticket. I do wear a cycle helmet.
 

MarkF

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
I fear we are wasting our breath Cunebin, the nanny state is indeed here, a couple of my none cycling friends make the joke that they would never ride a bike as it's too dangerous, when I asked why they said it must be because everyone wears helmets
hysterical.gif

I started cycling again past 40. I've only managed to convert one friend, every other person has said the very same thing "It (cycling or the roads) is too dangerous". I wonder why? I bet they never associated it with danger in their childhood and youth.
 

frank9755

Cyclist
Location
West London
If anyone's interested. I don't buy a lottery ticket. I do wear a cycle helmet.

Jim,

Your logic - which I take to be that wearing said helmet improves your chances of surviving a low probability / high impact event - makes sense as far as it goes. However, alas, it is that it is not as simple as that.

There are various reasons for this, including:

1. risk compensation by the cyclist - if you feel you are safer you take more risks

2. risk compensation by drivers - the well reported study a couple of years ago showing that drivers give less space to helmet wearers and more space to those in blonde wigs.

3. how wearing a helmet makes your head bigger and heavier and hence more likely to get hit during a fall (in particular the type which road cyclists generally have where you fall on your side with your shoulder taking the impact and where a bare head typically does not touch the road while one with a helmet does)

4. increased threat of rotational injury from wearing a helmet in a collision - one side of helmet snags on something and head unscrews - nasty.

5. where do you draw the line? Your line of reasoning could equally be applied to Walking Helmets.

There really isn't the evidence to support your logical argument in the way that there is for, say, motorbike helmets or for car seat belts. Therefore it necessarily becomes a 'faith' decision, not a rational one - that is why there are so many circular arguments about it!
 

frank9755

Cyclist
Location
West London
If people don't want to wear a helmet then that's their call and I respect their point of view but I can't understand why they would try to deter others from wearing one.

Does anyone actually do this?
Who and when?

In my experience, the evangelising is done by people promoting helmet sales and use. I've never come across anyone trying to deter me from buying or wearing one.
 

asterix

Comrade Member
Location
Limoges or York
My choise is - ALWAYS to wear a helmet. No exceptions. My first one saved my life (and didn't save car's front window), I have never had any accidents for 3 years, but I always wear it.
If somebody doesn't want to wear a helmet - I give you advice go to hospital and to see how people look like after head injuries. You never know when it will happen. Maybe never, maybe tomorrow.
Maybe I am too strict, but I have already have bad experience.

Brain damage rather than disfigurement is the most serious consequence of head injuries. It's not unusual to sustain brain damage without any sign of external injuries to the head at all. This is because of the deceleration of the persons head resulting in movement of the brain inside the skull cavity. A cycle (or motorcycle) helmet is unlikely to lessen this damage significantly.

In 2007 I spent about 8 weeks in a neurosurgical ward bed with a spinal injury; most of the emergency admissions were motor vehicle occupants/riders, none were cycling injuries, one was a guy who struck his head on a TV aerial pole he was putting up, He only had a headache that wouldn't go away, but being a doctor he knew he'd better seek advice and was rushed in pronto.

Helmet campaigns are just a smoke screen to conceal the fact that inconsiderate and incompetent road users are treated far too leniently. But those drivers can kill you helmet-wearer or not.
 
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