Helmet saved my life yesterday

[david k]

Of course I can read those words, I was just being a little self-effacing, shame a few more people around here don't practice that a little more often, being right all the time and constantly trashing other peoples opinions seems to be more important to them somehow. Just saying.

Further more the tactic seems to be to humiliate others rather than accept or respect their opinions.

When I've posted this in the past the reply has often been that opinions are fine but when people state them as fact and tell people what to do it must be countered, when its perfectly clear people are offering their opinion. However this is conveniently ignored as without it they cannot defend their attempt at humiliating anyone who even goes close to saying they think helmets are of value.

Common courtesy and respect seems to have no place in a helmet thread, and in my experience the mods have no issue with these tactics either.

Good to see that some posters prefer to keep their self respect despite the attempts of others to lower everything to their level

 

[Red Light]

When I've posted this in the past the reply has often been that opinions are fine but when people state them as fact and tell people what to do it must be countered evidenced

FTFY

 

[benb]

Yes, quite. No-one has a problem with people expressing their opinions, but when what they write is factually incorrect, they can expect to be called out on it.

 

[david k]

david k said: ↑

"When I've posted this in the past the reply has often been that opinions are fine but when people state them as fact and tell people what to do it must be countered evidenced"​

​

ok, it must be "evidenced", if you prefer. Read the sentence again and it says that "state them as fact they must be countered evidenced". And if you read it in full you will see I was making the point that fact differs to opinion. Do you understand? I guess you do but will chose not to as this suits your agenda.

benb," called out on it, questioned", whatever, I'm pointing out the need to respect other peoples opinions without having to become personal or attempt to humiliate them. You also make the assumption that the facts presented are automatically correct, they may be, they may not be, they are rarely very clear as there are so many variables, therefore people are left with their own interpretation of which 'facts' to chose. Hence somebodies opinion, or opinion of the facts, and as we all seem to agree, people are allowed this.

If anyone struggles with this point please just read my post again to save me the time of writing it yet again.

 

[theclaud]

david k said: ↑

"When I've posted this in the past the reply has often been that opinions are fine but when people state them as fact and tell people what to do it must be countered evidenced"​

​

ok, it must be "evidenced", if you prefer. Read the sentence again and it says that "state them as fact they must be countered evidenced". And if you read it in full you will see I was making the point that fact differs to opinion. Do you understand? I guess you do but will chose not to as this suits your agenda.

benb," called out on it, questioned", whatever, I'm pointing out the need to respect other peoples opinions without having to become personal or attempt to humiliate them. You also make the assumption that the facts presented are automatically correct, they may be, they may not be, they are rarely very clear as there are so many variables, therefore people are left with their own interpretation of which 'facts' to chose. Hence somebodies opinion, or opinion of the facts, and as we all seem to agree, people are allowed this.

If anyone struggles with this point please just read my post again to save me the time of writing it yet again.

I've just read it twice and I'm none the wiser. Will a magic third go make everything clear, do you think, or shall I just give up now?

 

[benb]

benb," called out on it, questioned", whatever, I'm pointing out the need to respect other peoples opinions without having to become personal or attempt to humiliate them

Challenging and questioning someone's opinion is not the same as ridiculing it.

 

[david k]

Challenging and questioning someone's opinion is not the same as ridiculing it.

agreed, i was referring to people ridiculing opinions not questioning them

theclaud and anyone else not following (or pretending not to follow in an attempt to be humorous), ask yourself this question.

Do you think people should be allowed to hold an opinion without having hard facts and evidence to back it up?

Then substitute the word 'opinion' for 'advice' and see if you get the same answer

 

[david k]

I've just read it twice and I'm none the wiser. Will a magic third go make everything clear, do you think, or shall I just give up now?

Thanks for helping me confirm my point BTW, this type of reply was exactly what I was referring too.

 

[theclaud]

Thanks for helping me confirm my point BTW, this type of reply was exactly what I was referring too.

I'd say "you're welcome" if I had the faintest idea what your point was!

 

[theclaud]

Oh, and the answer to your question is that you are entitled to hold whatever opinion you like about absolutely anything, but that doesn't mean anyone is obliged to respect that opinion.

 

[theclaud]

Do you think people should be allowed to hold an advice without having hard facts and evidence to back it up?

Then substitute the word 'opinion' for 'advice' and see if you get the same answer

I just did that - it makes even less sense.

 

[benb]

Do you think people should be allowed to hold an opinion without having hard facts and evidence to back it up?

Of course, but evidence trumps opinion every time, and if I hold an opinion that the evidence shows to be wrong then I'll change my opinion. (and that's exactly what happened to me with cycle helmets)

Someone is quite entitled to hold the opinion that the Earth is flat. Everyone else is entitled to point out why that opinion is demonstrably wrong. I would defend the right of anyone to hold any opinion they like, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else, but someone's opinion itself is not deserving of any particular respect.

 

[david k]

Of course, but evidence trumps opinion every time, and if I hold an opinion that the evidence shows to be wrong then I'll change my opinion. (and that's exactly what happened to me with cycle helmets)

Someone is quite entitled to hold the opinion that the Earth is flat. Everyone else is entitled to point out why that opinion is demonstrably wrong. I would defend the right of anyone to hold any opinion they like, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else, but someone's opinion itself is not deserving of any particular respect.

I agree with the majority of your reply, I would however add that your presuming the evidence is beyond any doubt.

You held one opinion, was convinced otherwise and I respect that. I ask people to respect that there are others who have not been convinced to change their mind. Each are equally valid IMO

 

[david k]

I just did that - it makes even less sense.

i think you understand what i meant, isnt hard to work out for most people, as I said, im trying to point out that people should be able to offer opinions and have discussions without others trying to ridicule

 

[Red Light]

david k said: ↑

"When I've posted this in the past the reply has often been that opinions are fine but when people state them as fact and tell people what to do it must be countered evidenced"​

​

ok, it must be "evidenced", if you prefer. Read the sentence again and it says that "state them as fact they must be countered evidenced". And if you read it in full you will see I was making the point that fact differs to opinion. Do you understand? I guess you do but will chose not to as this suits your agenda.

My modification was quite clear. If someone wants to state their opinion as fact then they need to provide the evidence that backs up that it is fact. I have no problem with people holding personal opinions that the world is flat, that homoeopathy will cure cancer, that a reptilian Babylonian Brotherhood controls humanity or even that helmets are a safety benefit when cycling. If however they want to state it as fact and moreover seek to persuade others of its factuality then they need to provide the evidence for it.

Now on helmets most everything I have posted has been backed up with research evidence whereas the evidence for helmet use has been mainly restricted to "you must be mad not to", "its obvious innit" and "how dare you question it".