Hi-Viz / reflective - pros & cons.

[Ajax Bay]

Indeed they do.....

 

[mjr]

CTC [said in the 1940s that] rear red lights did not help conspicuity [in daylight]

I love the sound of goalposts being moved...

Do you also think that it's a waste of time trying to increase one's conspicuity by displaying a rear flashing red light?

I think it's a waste of time trying to discuss this with you if the reply is going to be a load of Aunt Sally and retconning the questions to change the meanings of the answers.

If I get caught by a nasty smash while riding, I don't want some sets of friends/relatives/children thinking 'if only he'd been a bit more visible maybe he wouldn't have been hit in that incident'.

It's a shame you think your friends/relatives/children to be that stupid.

And I do think that drivers see me more easily, so that makes me more comfortable and confident when riding.

Risk compensation in action

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I partially agree with this sentiment but life is not as black and white as that (well not for me and many others). If I get caught by a nasty smash while riding, I don't want some sets of friends/relatives/children thinking 'if only he'd been a bit more visible maybe he wouldn't have been hit in that incident'. And I do think that drivers see me more easily, so that makes me more comfortable and confident when riding.

So why try to argue a rational case when the root of your decision to space lemon is an emotional one?
I have no problem with your emotional argument, I would have a problem with you applying it to others in an attempt to make them 'safer''.

As for me; I've educated tlh and all that love me that if I'm killed by a nobber driver, whilst unhelmeted and dressed in black merino, she is/they are not to entertain any sort of victim blaming thinking aka "if onlybollox" but to put the blame fairly and squarely on the person operating the heavy machinery in close proximity to a more vulnerable road user until such time as said nobber proves conclusively that either I was intent on suicide or they were driving at an acceptable standard.

 

[Nigel-YZ1]

In broad daylight this morning I was driving with sidelights on a straight country road in my bright red car.
The young lady in the Clio coming the other way still smashed bits of my door mirror 50 yards.

If they don't look they don't see.

 

[Ajax Bay]

I think it's a waste of time trying to discuss this with you if the reply is going to be a load of Aunt Sally and retconning the questions to change the meanings of the answers.

Well why are you discussing it then. 'Fraid do not recognise 'retconning' but will assume it's complementary.

It's a shame you think your friends/relatives/children to be that stupid.

There's no shame in considering the feelings of relatives/friends and it's generally considered to be civilised to do so. Just because their understanding may not be backed up by established data/evidence doesn't equate to stupidity.

@GrumpyGregry Good to see your enduring 'space lemon' sound bite come out once again. I have not advocated hi-viz jackets but suggested that lighter, brighter upper clothing and reflective stripes are worth wearing in dull conditions, if one has a choice, and to consider such factors when buying clothing.
With regard to 'blame' whether you like it, even when there is 100% responsibility eg a driver rear ending you or pulling in on you when they've not made sure the road is clear, far enough to pass (had this by a coach only yesterday, I was doing 25 in a 40 limit approaching a village and a 30 sign - I caught him up and in the hearing of his passengers suggested he was not a credit to his company), many will attribute some albeit small part of the blame to the cyclist if they can, and "dressed in black merino" ninja invisibility clothing gives them a handle. Worth avoiding.
Nice view from the col of Slochd btw.

 

[Tin Pot]

Facts are, as we've seen, in rather short supply. The various studies quoted are relatively inconclusive and seem to be enlisted, on this forum, in favour of the 'do nothing, some drivers don't look anyway, let's just hope, if too many people wear hi-viz they'll make it law' chapter (see example contributors above). I can't help thinking that those who think it's worth trying to be more visible on a bike have given up on this thread because they know that 'you' are not going to give up repeating your mantras. But after yesterday's 110km (wearing a black and white rain jacket, reflective stripes on my bib tights and overboots and dispalying a flashing rear light), I'm inspired to have one more effort.

Do you also think that it's a waste of time trying to increase one's conspicuity by displaying a rear flashing red light? Why have cars got brake lights? In dull conditions one can see a car from behind more easily if their rear lights are on. Or do you think that's not true either? Does one not see the rear of emergency and highway maintenance vehicles more easily by their general adoption of yellow/orange/red diagonal stripes?

Do you think that females feel differently about this subject (effort to increase conspicuity), being daughters, mothers, wives and sisters, and therefore, perhaps, more sensitive to the "common sense and intuition", whether based on facts or not, of their loved ones?

Your post is a great example of everything I stand against. Take heart in that the masses agree with you.

 

[Accy cyclist]

I think the crash scene I passed yesterday was attended by police in black (with some blue and white details), firemen in their customary mustard (with some yellow, white and red details) and only the paramedics wearing conventional-looking hi-viz.

Have you noticed how the plod always reach for their high viz jackets as they get out the car before approaching a crash scene? The "some yellow"on the fireman clothing is fluorescent yellow, with reflective strips on that fluoro yellow.

 

[mjr]

Have you noticed how the plod always reach for their high viz jackets as they get out the car before approaching a crash scene?

Well, they hadn't yesterday. They really were wearing the black that our local police usually wear, even on cycle patrol.

The "some yellow"on the fireman clothing is fluorescent yellow, with reflective strips on that fluoro yellow.

I can't say if the white was reflective because it was about 3pm and the sun wasn't behind me, but if it was fluoro yellow then it had been washed so often it no longer fluoresced.

I had a quick browse of their website but it seems to show mostly firemen in black uniforms with white reflective strips, sometimes with hi-viz yellow or red jackets over that, but that definitely wasn't what they were wearing yesterday. I'm not sure if that's a new uniform they're just introducing or if it's stock photos from elsewhere in England, but they were definitely wearing mustard-colour uniforms yesterday.

 

[Tim Hall]

And no one is allowed outside airside without a hi viz tabard at airports. What does this tell us?

The lemon yellow is a strong colour and can repel aircraft?

 

[mustang1]

Yet abroad, they paint them bright colours for the opposite reason:


Yeah, sure, I'll buy and wear special clothes and carry extra luggage to store it when not on the bike... right after motorists are made to do that with fireproof overalls, as that would save more lives.


Wouldn't happen to have had some sort of financial interest in their sales, would it?

Those cameras abroad are not just painted in bright colours, but bright colours with a certain pattern. This mocked the ships in world war 2 which also had a similar pattern to aid camaflouge.

I brought up the point about gatso cameras being in yellow to point out that they are far more visible than grey, not to say anything for or against motorists.

Iirc, the YouTube video test was from GCN and quite informative!

 

[growingvegetables]

Is safety measured in 'ounces'? What about the hue (ie light/dark) of one's clothing? Surely you've driven up behind someone in poor light conditions and thought "he/she's a bit dark - some lighter hue clothing would have allowed me to see him/her more easily/earlier".

Yes. You are thinking like a driver. A good driver. But I am not protecting myself against you.

Last night, I rode up York Road (Leeds) behind a guy with a failed rear light battery; dressed in black. And was thoroughly p*$$ed off at the numpties who fast-close-passed me (with GOOD rear lights, and high-vis) ........... while

... the *******s slowed for him. Pulled out for him. Gave him MILES of courteous and safe space.

WTF?

I don't need to protect myself against good drivers. I DO need to protect myself against idiots who think high-vis confers some magical ability to bounce back from an impact, unhurt!

 

[ufkacbln]

The CTC stance on lighting and their statements against the introduction of compulsory lighting has often been misunderstood

The objection was the fact that there was a significant change in teh law and the repercussions of this change

The point was that until this point it was the responsibility of the following driver to see the cyclist.... the new legislation changed this completely with the responsibility of the cyclist to be seen

 

[ufkacbln]

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to be run over by an Airbus without a hi viz tabard on.

Can you get a tabard for an AirBus?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Your post is a great example of everything I stand against. Take heart in that the masses agree with you.

It is only rarely that the Tin Pot and I are in agreement. This is one such occasion.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Well why are you discussing it then. 'Fraid do not recognise 'retconning' but will assume it's complementary.

There's no shame in considering the feelings of relatives/friends and it's generally considered to be civilised to do so. Just because their understanding may not be backed up by established data/evidence doesn't equate to stupidity.

@GrumpyGregry Good to see your enduring 'space lemon' sound bite come out once again. I have not advocated hi-viz jackets but suggested that lighter, brighter upper clothing and reflective stripes are worth wearing in dull conditions, if one has a choice, and to consider such factors when buying clothing.
With regard to 'blame' whether you like it, even when there is 100% responsibility eg a driver rear ending you or pulling in on you when they've not made sure the road is clear, far enough to pass (had this by a coach only yesterday, I was doing 25 in a 40 limit approaching a village and a 30 sign - I caught him up and in the hearing of his passengers suggested he was not a credit to his company), many will attribute some albeit small part of the blame to the cyclist if they can, and "dressed in black merino" ninja invisibility clothing gives them a handle. Worth avoiding.
Nice view from the col of Slochd btw.

Not my soundbite btw. Copyright @theclaud sfaik.

As to the worth avoiding point. Victim blaming. Worth avoiding.

Slochd? I love the downhill to Tomatin.