Hi-Viz, sensible precaution or victim blaming?

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mcshroom

Bionic Subsonic
...and all times are a lot safer if the person piloting over a ton of metal actually drives with due care and attention.

That you seem to believe there is a responsibility for the pedestrian to highlight themselves to the driver instead of a responsibility for the driver to look where they are going shows how skewed thinking has become in favour of drivers.
 

Spinney

Bimbleur extraordinaire
Location
Back up north
...and all times are a lot safer if the person piloting over a ton of metal actually drives with due care and attention.

That you seem to believe there is a responsibility for the pedestrian to highlight themselves to the driver instead of a responsibility for the driver to look where they are going shows how skewed thinking has become in favour of drivers.

I don't think anyone is saying 'instead'. Yes, the driver should be looking. But some of us are saying that it might be a good idea if pedestrians/cyclists could make it a bit easier for the drivers to see them. That's all.
 

Spinney

Bimbleur extraordinaire
Location
Back up north
This comes down to good for the individual v common good, I guess (and in the case of hi-vis, neither is really demonstrated from evidence).

I'll stick to wearing hi-vis on the bike most of the time, and not when walking.
 

RedRider

Pulling through
I may get shot down here, but what is so awful about it? It is simplistic, but it is aimed at children.
And they do mention reflective, not just bright colours.
My gripe is not really with how effective the BMW campaign might be, I'm sure it's pitched at the right level for primary age kids.
It's not really with the idea hi-vis/reflective/bright clothing makes a kid less likely to die when going about his/her everyday activities even though the evidence for this is weak to non-existent.
I do have a problem with BMW getting free advertising under the guise of education, just as I do with the likes of McDonald's getting product placement in schools 'cos they sponsor a pencil or something, but that's not the thing that really gets my goat either.
What galls is the stuff that Adrian and DM have been talking about upthread. We all know there's a class of driver who think that we cyclists, not they who kill and maim are the problem. Well let's promote this mindset when the brain is plastic! It's the whole concept of BMW getting into schools, the heads of children and working on the neuroses of parents to imply they're somehow irresponsible for wearing or letting their kids wear brown. It's the implication that drivers can be excused poor skills and lack of care because someone's shoelace doesn't have a reflective tag.
 
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Spinney

Bimbleur extraordinaire
Location
Back up north
My gripe is not really with how effective the BMW campaign might be, I'm sure it's pitched at the right level for primary age kids.
It's not really with the idea hi-vis/reflective/bright clothing makes a kid less likely to die when going about his/her everyday activities even though the evidence for this is weak to non-existent.
I do have a problem with BMW getting free advertising under the guise of education, just as I do with the likes of McDonald's getting product placement in schools 'cos they sponsor a pencil or something, but that's not the thing that really gets my goat either.
What galls is the stuff that Adrian and DM have been talking about upthread. We all know there's a class of driver who think that we cyclists, not they who kill and maim are the problem. Well let's promote this mindset when the brain is plastic! It's the whole concept of BMW getting into schools, the heads of children and working on the neuroses of parents to imply they're somehow irresponsible for wearing or letting their kids wear brown. It's the implication that drivers can be excused poor skills and lack of care because someone's shoelace doesn't have a reflective tag.
OK, I can see your points, and I think I agree.
 

Linford

Guest
2743755 said:
I am warning that decisions may have consequences and they may not be what was wanted, making things that appear a good idea on first glance not to be.

What you really appear to be saying is that you actually don't want to carry any responsibility on a personal level for keeping yourself save in a potentially dangerous situation, and would rather leave it to chance.

I've got an idea...you dress up in matt black, I can dress up in high viz and reflective clothing (and a light to be sure), we can walk down a given narrow country lane for a couple of miles (you on one side, me on the other) when there is a bit of drizzle and see who gets run over first.
 

mcshroom

Bionic Subsonic
If the drivers are blind then high-viz won't help you :tongue:
 

booze and cake

probably out cycling
Riding a bike with no lights at night is dumb and asking for trouble, and even with hiz viz or reflective clothing is still breaking the law. But I don't see a problem with not wearing Hiz-viz reflective clothing cycling at night if you have lights. I don't see harm in wearing it, but I don't see enough evidence to make it mandatory.

There is also a difference between 'sorry mate I did'nt see you' and 'sorry mate I was'nt looking' and I'm sure some of the tragedies on the road have been cases of the latter argued as the former. Unfortunately in the latter instance being lit up like a chrimbo tree is no guarantee of safety.

2743450 said:
The bottom line is that it is, as ever, those posing danger shifting responsibility to those on the receiving end.

I think there is an element of truth in this, its easy to make a cheap shot to avoid addressing the more obvious inadequacies that are at the root of the problem. Take this classic example today from TFL's Peter Hendy (who deserves a forceful kick in the plums for his statement in this article).

http://lydall.standard.co.uk/2013/1...-years-with-serious-cycle-injuries-up-18.html

In view of all that is going on around campaigning at the moment the reasoning for the Boris Bike safety record seems a ridiculous statement, and diverts the criticism away from motorists and TFL's own (in)actions onto cyclists. Look at the number of pedestrians being killed, they number more than the cyclists but I don't see him advocating that all pedestrians have flashing lights front and rear.
 

deptfordmarmoset

Full time tea drinker
Location
Armonmy Way
@Linford. You seem to have some kind of grounding in the law, whereas I have spent a lifetime expressly trying to avoid the law, but you may be able to help me on a point. I remember a time when, under health and safety regulations, people had an equal responsibility for their own and other's safety. This may still be the case, but I see little evidence of it. Car designers have spent inordinate amounts of time and money increasing the safety of cars for the user (because, obviously, it's the buyer who pays for that added safety). However, that increased driver safety leads to a tremendous imbalance in that ''equal responsibility'' bit. Apart from the removal of the Rolls Royce sticky-up diving lady on the bonnet and a cursory look at crumple zones and their slightly reduced impact on bones, there is precious little thought gone into the people outside the car. I happen to believe that this imbalance is beyond being at a critical point. The added security for the car user leads inevitably towards a revised style of driving, and that revised style of driving leads to the transferral of danger to the outside.

What I want to know, is which part of the law condones, or even permits, that transferral of danger to the outside?

(This may seem a little off topic, but it is relevant to the idea that the endangered is responsible for protecting against dangers posed by others.)
 

Linford

Guest
@Linford. You seem to have some kind of grounding in the law, whereas I have spent a lifetime expressly trying to avoid the law, but you may be able to help me on a point. I remember a time when, under health and safety regulations, people had an equal responsibility for their own and other's safety. This may still be the case, but I see little evidence of it. Car designers have spent inordinate amounts of time and money increasing the safety of cars for the user (because, obviously, it's the buyer who pays for that added safety). However, that increased driver safety leads to a tremendous imbalance in that ''equal responsibility'' bit. Apart from the removal of the Rolls Royce sticky-up diving lady on the bonnet and a cursory look at crumple zones and their slightly reduced impact on bones, there is precious little thought gone into the people outside the car. I happen to believe that this imbalance is beyond being at a critical point. The added security for the car user leads inevitably towards a revised style of driving, and that revised style of driving leads to the transferral of danger to the outside.

What I want to know, is which part of the law condones, or even permits, that transferral of danger to the outside?

(This may seem a little off topic, but it is relevant to the idea that the endangered is responsible for protecting against dangers posed by others.)

I take it you've not heard of Euro Ncap . They rate cars not just on their abilities to protect the occupants, but also how pedestrians fare when run over by one.
The sad fact is for all of the changes and improvements in car design safety, if you get run over by a car at 40 or 50, then the odds of you surviving are substantially less than at 30 or 20. If one does wear a piece of clothing to help drivers see them earlier, then that translates into reaction and braking time which will in turn reduce the risk of injury, or indeed the severity of the injury itself.
I sustained a life changing injury as a pillion on a PTW when I was 17 (riders fault) and spent the best part of 6 months on crutches, and I can happily testify that prevention is far more valuable than any compensation payout. ..that is ultimately what the high vz and reflective is looking to achieve.
(no legal training, just some dealings with RTAs and the legal system over the years).
 
Thanks for the article. One of the idiotic execs at work is trying to push through mandatory high-viz for cyclists on site and this is a useful piece in our rebuttal.


We had something similar and supported it fully!

Then pointed out that there were pedestrians waking along the same road, and that the incident logs showed that there were more pedestrians hit by vehicles onthe site than cyclists.

It was amazing how the idea was quickly dropped!
 
I take it you've not heard of Euro Ncap . They rate cars not just on their abilities to protect the occupants, but also how pedestrians fare when run over by one.
The sad fact is for all of the changes and improvements in car design safety, if you get run over by a car at 40 or 50, then the odds of you surviving are substantially less than at 30 or 20. If one does wear a piece of clothing to help drivers see them earlier, then that translates into reaction and braking time which will in turn reduce the risk of injury, or indeed the severity of the injury itself.
I sustained a life changing injury as a pillion on a PTW when I was 17 (riders fault) and spent the best part of 6 months on crutches, and I can happily testify that prevention is far more valuable than any compensation payout. ..that is ultimately what the high vz and reflective is looking to achieve.
(no legal training, just some dealings with RTAs and the legal system over the years).


The question is with all this knowledge you are still allowed to market a vehicle with absolutely no contribution to pedestrian safety.

A driver is able to choose to inflict greater damage to pedestrians on a whim!
 

Linford

Guest
The question is with all this knowledge you are still allowed to market a vehicle with absolutely no contribution to pedestrian safety.

A driver is able to choose to inflict greater damage to pedestrians on a whim!

You mean a deliberate act ?
 
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