High-viz jackets.

[pwh91]

I have nothing against people that wear hi-vis, if you want to wear it that's fine. But just don't assume or put any emphasis on drivers ''seeing'' you if you are wearing hi-vis. Not saying that you do or will but that is the general feeling I am getting from some folk who have been posting in this thread and others.

It's a game of statistics. So irrespective of the Hi-viz question for a moment (let's take the example of bright lights vs. dim lights), if

- 99.95% of passing motorists see the "bright" cyclist
- and 99.90% of passing motorists see the "dim" cyclist

then over days and days of cycling - and thousands of cars passing the cyclists - on average the "dim light" cyclist has a doubled chance of a collision caused specifically by those drivers at the extreme end of the attention-lost / poor-vision / reckless scale. And there are *plenty* of drivers out there whose vision is substandard (a scary thought...) especially those who are compromised under low-sun and low light conditions, due to conditions such as cataracts.

My concern on visibility - which is why I'm sticking to this thread longer than I meant to - is that I also suspect that the kind of injuries possible through "not being seen" are likely to be worse than those due to misjudgement - since a car unaware of a cyclist may still be travelling at it's full speed at the moment of impact.

Anyway Lee, with respect to your posting: it's *exactly* what I'm saying - that if have improved my %age visibility to drivers, I'll be pushing up the statistics in my favour, whether it's due to lights, Hi-Viz or reflective material.

Just to be clear - If you guys have great lights, good cyclecraft etc then I'm certainly not saying that you are unsafe not to wear Hi-Viz. Just that it's a game of statistics, with factors that vary depending on road and light conditions, and I'd be concerned if inexperienced riders left this thread thinking that Hi-Viz was a waste of time. It's just another factor when weighing up your risks, no more, no less. Personally if was an inexperienced rider, I'd be wanting Hi-Viz (and the rest..) and then judge the risks as I got more experience.

 

[BentMikey]

My points are simple
- Hi-Viz increases visibility in some - not all - light conditions, over dark kit. But rarely does is do *worse* than dark kit.
- Drivers can't avoid you if they can't see you
- All other points made by Lee and BM are valid, I salute them... cyclecraft, lights, the lot.... but they are additiive to the Hi-viz question
- I have to wear some type of jacket or top to commute in, unless I was a naturist...
... so why not wear something Hi-viz...?

Some of your points are wrong:

Contrast is what counts - hiviz sometimes has good contrast, and black sometimes has good contrast. It all depends on the background. Hiviz does not intrinsically have an advantage.

Cyclecraft, lights, the lot aren't additive to hiviz. Hiviz is pretty useless by comparison with cyclecraft and lights. It has perhaps two orders of magnitude less effect on your safety, it is a stupid thing to concentrate on if your real concern is your own cycling safety. Sure, it's possible to add hiviz to first sorting out cycle craft and lights, but when the improvement is so tiny by comparison, why bother? Sometimes it seems that all we ever see in London are the wobblers in their helmets and hiviz, often with poor lights, lights under their jackets who no doubt think they are doing all they can to be safe, when in fact they are doing everything wrong. Hiviz contributes to this problem, because it takes focus away from what cyclists should really be working on.

For that matter, cycling is roughly as safe as walking - I assume you wear your hiviz when you walk to the shops.

Your point on hiviz working at dusk is wrong - there's simply not enough UV around any more, so it stops flourescing. You get this under street lighting:

I'll say it again - hiviz is a rabbit's foot against the fear of other traffic. Nothing more.

 

[BentMikey]

Oh, I've just thought of another point - I got far more SMIDSYs [1] when wearing hiviz. Why? I'm not sure, but one likely cause is that drivers see hiviz and either assume it's a workman, so pull out, or know it's only a cyclist, and still pull out anyway.

A confident position, and no hiviz screams out that you own the road/are in charge for that moment. That's what makes drivers wait, IME.

[1] Sorry Mate I Didn't See You. Usually used when they did see you, but to excuse their error.

 

[threebikesmcginty]

Mikey's point there could almost be self-defeating ie 'drivers see hiviz' and the [1] Usually when they did seeyou but excuse their error. You've been seen on both occasions.
I think Lee and Mikey are right when they state that a confident riding position is the main thing but what's the harm in backing that up with a bright yellow jacket.

 

[pwh91]

BM , Lee - we're going to have to agree to differ - or at least I will. I'm not going to re-pick your agument, everyone else can read and decide what they think since I've written enough, my post stands as-is. Alen-UK, sorry to hijack your thread BTW!

Pete

 

[hackbike 666]

My advice is watch other cyclists when you are a ped and you can pick up tips.

Im always watching cyclists when I am out and who are the easiest to see and why.As I said I saw a ninja with lights and notice how when his lights were blocked out by a car he became invisible for a few seconds.

I wasn't looking for faults I always assess cyclists when im out to see if there is any useful tips I can pick up.


BM , Lee - we're going to have to agree to differ

I do/have/always will.

Every time I ask serious non bike using motorists I get the same answer.

I will ask the ultimate anti cyclist motorist at work tommorow.

 

[hackbike 666]

Ultimately it comes down to the skill of the rider. You can be lit like a Christmas with all the hi-viz to boot but if your lane positioning is crap and you lack the confidence at junctions, then you will have an accident at some point.

Why have some much hi-vis anyway? So other motorists can see you? Seeing and reacting are two seperate things. I would react more to a cyclist dressed in black with a flashing LED on the back of his bike who is holding a good road positioning rather then somone who has x amount of lights on the rear of his bike and is in full high vis gear but riding in the gutter.

I ride in cycle lanes,im a defensive cyclist and if things look dodgy I won't take chances.I wear Hi-Viz but generally I don't really think about it when im out and about on the road.Which is why im lit up like a Christmas tree rearside.I had a taxi driver remark on this once.

I have 3 flashing lights on my bag plus one steady standlight on my bike and have probably realised today why the driving is so appalling on the Mile End Road at certain times of the night like it was yesterday.

I haven't got the most powerful front lights but I get by.I haven't had a SMIDSY in the last 5 years at least.(Touchwood)

Im surprised how effective my Hi-Viz is for this reason as apparently my road positioning is crap.

 

[allen-uk]

I don't know why high-viz discussions divide people into Believers and Non-believers. I still can't see any point in that (perhaps arguments should be in fluorescent yellow).

Nor (BentMikey: hiviz is a rabbit's foot against the fear of other traffic. Nothing more) do I believe in such good-luck charms. I have lights on my bike and I wouldn't describe them as rabbit's feet, either. And I'm not frightened of other traffic, any more than I live in fear of knife-carriers in dark alleys. But I do try to avoid them.

There IS an argument to be had about the psychology of protection, e.g. car seat-belts, bike helmets, high-viz, flashing cycle lights, and so on, and how their users do have an element of rabbit's-foot-type belief, but I really don't think it detracts from this central point: sensible bike riders will do all they can to be safe, which might well mean having high-viz clothing AND bright lights!

It is not an either/or argument.

Allen.

 

[BentMikey]

Mikey's point there could almost be self-defeating ie 'drivers see hiviz' and the [1] Usually when they did seeyou but excuse their error. You've been seen on both occasions.
I think Lee and Mikey are right when they state that a confident riding position is the main thing but what's the harm in backing that up with a bright yellow jacket.

Yes, I see what you mean. I probably didn't explain my thinking well enough there.

A good road position is assertive, and this sort of confident positioning tends to encourage people to back down from doing something they know they probably shouldn't. It's not just being seen, but owning the bit of road you're currently using and need for your own safety.

 

[BentMikey]

I haven't got the most powerful front lights but I get by.I haven't had a SMIDSY in the last 5 years at least.(Touchwood)

*Ahem* - those pedestrians you hit, and the numerous other close calls you've posted about? I think you've had quite a few SMIDSYs the way I'd define it.

Now I'm not suggesting in the slightest that you're a bad rider, in fact far from it, just that you, like everyone else on here, has SMIDSYs on a regular basis. Most of the time you successfully correct for their mistakes, just like I do.

 

[BentMikey]

Here's quite a good example of a spectacular hiviz fail:

Quest rider - 4x4 driver pulls out on Lee. Result a written off quest and a £5k insurance claim. I bet the driver and insurance company winced when they found out how much they were going to pay.

 

[MacB]

Well, due to exhaustion and sleeping late I got a lift to the station this morning. I decided to look closely at any cyclist we passed and saw 6 in total.

Lights - all 6 had lights in various combinations, some were better than others but all seemed to meet the legal requirements. Personally I found the ones with only one light front and back were less visible. Especially where they were both on flash mode. This makes me happier re my decision to go with steady and flash both front and back.

Cyclecraft - 4 of the 6 were very much in secondary and closer in than I would have been comfortable cycling. They must have been hitting every drain, pothole etc, ignoring the safety aspect that must be pretty uncomfortable. The other 2 were much more prominent and appeared more confident in their styles(hard to really assess in the snapshot you see as you pass).

Highviz - 4 had the full jacket or the waistcoat, this included the 2 more confident riders. One was a schoolboy in a dark uniform and the other was a guy in dark green with a dark rucksack.

Visibility to cars, the prominent cycling position with the high viz, followed by secondary in high viz and finally the secondary in dark clothing. I accept that light conditions vary through the day etc but I was surpirsed by how late I saw the 2 cyclists in darker clothing. Accepted their lights could have been significantly better but any occlusion of said lights left them almost invisible, which was not the case with the high viz riders. Pity there wasn't a prominently placed rider in dark clothes to compare against.

My conclusion, lights and road position are paramount but the high viz definitely further enhanced my awareness of the riders.

 

[hackbike 666]

*Ahem* - those pedestrians you hit, and the numerous other close calls you've posted about? I think you've had quite a few SMIDSYs the way I'd define it.

Now I'm not suggesting in the slightest that you're a bad rider, in fact far from it, just that you, like everyone else on here, has SMIDSYs on a regular basis. Most of the time you successfully correct for their mistakes, just like I do.

Not by motor vehicles and those three peds run from the other side of the road to stop right in front of me and now you are talking bo55ox.I have not had numerous near misses.Come on bring up these 'numerous' near misses when you have probably had as many or more than me.

 

[BentMikey]

I'm sure our number of near misses isn't radically different - and I'm not criticising your riding.

I do think that it's a bit rich to try and claim you haven't had a SMIDSY in 5 years. SMIDSY doesn't mean collision, just that someone went when they shouldn't have. Sometimes it's not looking, and sometimes it's not giving a darn.

 

[allen-uk]

Just out of interest, and reverting for a moment to the original point...

I got an Altura Nightvision etc., and went out this morning in the cold and damp. Smashing jacket, although at 3XL I'm pushing the size limits. I like it, so thanks for the recommendations.


Allen.