Hill intervals: Improve your climbing

[Rob3rt]

You know your FTP from a power meter (just curious as it is besides the point)? An FTP of 300W probably won't get you a 20 min 10TT unless a good portion is downhill.

Probably an 18 on a TT bike, although nowhere did it state it was on the flat :-)

30mph is 30mph regardless of bike

 

[MattHB]

You know your FTP from a power meter? An FTP of 300W probably won't get you a 20 min 10TT.



30mph is 30mph regardless of bike

Yes I do.. And I still refer you to the fact that he didn't say it was flat

 

[black'n'yellow]

I can

I start racing next year (on hold this year because of the baby)

Please start racing this year.

 

[Rob3rt]

Yes I do.. And I still refer you to the fact that he didn't say it was flat

He didn't say it, but you know he was referring to riding 30mph solo on the flat, since his whole argument was based around the ability to train for hills, on the flat!

 

[MattHB]

He didn't say it, but you know he was referring to riding 30mph solo on the flat, since his whole argument was based around the ability to train for hills, on the flat!

You need to take a 'be less serious pill'

 

[black'n'yellow]

MattHB - you just said you could sustain 30mph on a road bike for 10mins. Either you can or you can't. Which is it? With that kind of FTP, you will solo to victory in every race you enter.

 

[Rob3rt]

You know your FTP from a power meter (just curious as it is besides the point)? An FTP of 300W probably won't get you a 20 min 10TT unless a good portion is downhill.



30mph is 30mph regardless of bike

I made a mistake here Endoman, you are correct! Don't know what I was thinking, I read sustain 30mph on a road bike and switched off, didnt notice the 10 minute bit and the road bike comment didnt click, so you are right (I think), if you can hold 30mph for 10 min on a road bike, you are possibly looking at sub-20 min 10 mile TT on a TT bike in full attire. Definatelly a 20 min.

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

Okay hands up, who can maintain 30mph for 10min solo on a road bike? Because that's me producing around 470w. However if I stay on the hoods & stand up maintaining that same 10 min power my speed will drop to 24-25mph. Which on a 53/11 gear equates to 65rpm. Find a nice long shallow incline (say 1%) & you can be down at 20mph when standing on the hoods.

There is a difference in momentum. I don't understand why people argue that there is no need for hills. I would personally only recommend this to someone if they lived in an area with no hills. What possible benefit could there be to riding on the flat whilst attempting to improve climbing ability, as opossed to training on actual hills?

If you want to get better at TT then ride TT. If you want to better your climbing then, if you have the option, climb some hills.

Only settle for simulation when the real thing is not an option.

 

[Rob3rt]

There is a difference in momentum. I don't understand why people argue that there is no need for hills. I would personally only recommend this to someone if they lived in an area with no hills. What possible benefit could there be to riding on the flat whilst attempting to improve climbing ability, as opossed to training on actual hills?

If you want to get better at TT then ride TT. If you want to better your climbing then, if you have the option, climb some hills.

Only settle for simulation when the real thing is not an option.

The difference in momentum is ultimately a moot point. It just doesn't matter, you are either pushing target power or you are not. Ultimately you ride at a certain % FTP, it doesn't matter how you hit it, so long as you do.

I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't train for hills on hills, just that you don't neccessarily have to go up hills to get good at it, i.e. there is no need to ride 20 mile to find a hill to ride repeats on, if there is a nice stretch of road or circuit you can ride hard efforts on closer to home.

There are benefits to training on the flat though, you can ride at the intended effort as long as you want/require, if you want to train for a 40 minute climb, you will struggle to find one in the UK!

 

[Ningishzidda]

There is a difference in momentum. I don't understand why people argue that there is no need for hills. I would personally only recommend this to someone if they lived in an area with no hills. What possible benefit could there be to riding on the flat whilst attempting to improve climbing ability, as opossed to training on actual hills?

If you want to get better at TT then ride TT. If you want to better your climbing then, if you have the option, climb some hills.

Only settle for simulation when the real thing is not an option.

+1

Hill climbing is riding along the road while overcoming acceleration due to gravity which is a proportion of g roughtly the Sin of theta for the slope.

When you climb a hill, the bike is ‘nose up’. When the hill gets steep, pedalling style changes.
The article is for the cyclist to train to master the new pedalling style as well as improving the muscles involved when using the new pedalling style.

The ‘give away’ words are “jump out of the saddle”.

IMHO, this cannot be done on the flat.

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

The difference in momentum is ultimately a moot point. It just doesn't matter, you are either pushing target power or you are not. Ultimately you ride at a certain % FTP, it doesn't matter how you hit it, so long as you do.

I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't train for hills on hills, just that you don't neccessarily have to go up hills to get good at it, i.e. there is no need to ride 20 mile to find a hill to ride repeats on, if there is a nice stretch of road or circuit you can ride hard efforts on closer to home.

There are benefits to training on the flat though, you can ride at the intended effort as long as you want/require, if you want to train for a 40 minute climb, you will struggle to find one in the UK!

The part where it is not a "moot" point though Robert is when the cyclist fails to mantain that power. The effects of the hill on the cyclist when they are no longer able to perform at the desired level. This is different physically and mentally.

 

[GrasB]

There is a difference in momentum. I don't understand why people argue that there is no need for hills.

I train on the fens, it'd the epitome of flat. The very opposite of where I race/TT the Alps. Come race day push out exactly the same power for exactly the same durations I would on the fens. When a group of my Italian friends came to the UK & we rode together guess what, our relative performance levels where nearly the same. (Actually this isn't quite true, my performance increases relative to theirs, as expected due to my higher absolute power given similar we all have W/kg & I'm heavy)

You try to tell me I need hills to climb I say you don't because my training & performances say I don't.

 

[Rob3rt]

The part where it is not a "moot" point though Robert is when the cyclist fails to mantain that power. The effects of the hill on the cyclist when they are no longer able to perform at the desired level. This is different physically and mentally.

Same on the flat or a hill, when you fail to maintain power, you slow down, just the same, the only difference is the speed differential, on the flat you drop from 25 to 22, on the hill from 12 mph to 9mph. Mentally it is different (a little bit because people talk themselves out of hills), physically, it is not so different.

 

[Rob3rt]

+1

Hill climbing is riding along the road while overcoming acceleration due to gravity which is a proportion of g roughtly the Sin of theta for the slope.

When you climb a hill, the bike is ‘nose up’. When the hill gets steep, pedalling style changes.
The article is for the cyclist to train to master the new pedalling style as well as improving the muscles involved when using the new pedalling style.

The ‘give away’ words are “jump out of the saddle”.

IMHO, this cannot be done on the flat.

The fact you are over coming gravity makes no difference! On the flat you are overcoming aerodynamic drag.............. it really makes no difference what force you are over coming, so long as you are putting out the same power.

The point re. pedalling style, you would have to clarify, the "style" is the same, the pedals are going around, you may adjust your position on the bike a bit though! I don't deny this.

I am struggling with this bolded part! Yes it can be done on the flat, not sure how you conclude it cant.

 

[black'n'yellow]

I train on the fens, it'd the epitome of flat. The very opposite of where I race/TT the Alps. Come race day push out exactly the same power for exactly the same durations I would on the fens. When a group of my Italian friends came to the UK & we rode together guess what, our relative performance levels where nearly the same. (Actually this isn't quite true, my performance increases relative to theirs, as expected due to my higher absolute power given similar we all have W/kg & I'm heavy)

You try to tell me I need hills to climb I say you don't because my training & performances say I don't.

^^ got to agree with GrasB here. I live in a very hilly area - I could ride 5-mile, 1000ft climbs every day if I wanted. Ironically, mostly I train on the flat - or at least the flattest routes I can find. Here comes an anecdote...

Last year I significantly improved my hill climbing. I didn't improve it by riding up hills. I improved it by increasing my sustainable power and aerobic threshold. On the flat.