How can Donhou charge £2300 for an off the shelf 853 frame?

[Citius]

I just dont like people being called mugs for spending their money on what they want........but justify your response in anyway you wish to make yourself feel better..........personally i think like everything in life, you get what you pay for and rapha cycling gear is definately worth the price tag in my opinion and experience

Sounds like you are the one trying to feel better, not me (I feel fine). Anyway, I thought you were in bed?

 

[jowwy]

I asked Dave Yates this and I think he said 1 day. That's including forks.

If Donhou gets a nice bunch of orders for the off the shelf frames he can probably productionise things a little, buy another jig and take on an apprentice to make two a day. That's what I'd do. It would leave me free to work on the backlog of custom frame orders. And it ought to be extremely profitable.

So did he say a day or did you think he said a day.......i would guess it may take a day to do the welds, but then cutting the tubes, measuring up, cleaning up the joints, applying primer, paint, cooking frame for hardness, clear coating etc etc would take a hell of a lot longer than 1 day

 

[Eurostar]

I mean one day including cutting and measuring, cleaning up and blasting. In other words everything except painting.

ETA: I've asked Dave over at yacf where the money is going on these Donhou OTS frames - an unfair question really, but if I get an answer I'll report back.

 

[andyfraser]

I just dont like people being called mugs for spending their money on what they want........but justify your response in anyway you wish to make yourself feel better..........personally i think like everything in life, you get what you pay for and rapha cycling gear is definately worth the price tag in my opinion and experience

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just sticking my oar in again.

I believe in the law of diminishing returns. Above a certain price the overall quality probably won't get any better. You'll be paying for hand built instead of mass-produced or a better or more distinctive paint job or something else. We all have something we'd pay extra for for what ever reason.

 

[Eurostar]

I've just found a post written by Dave about TIG welding vs brazing:

Q. Other than cost, are there any advantages to TIG welding over brazing steel frames?

A. The advantages of TIG fall mainly to the manufacturer. The process is quicker and cleaner so the tiresome process of cleaning up brazed joints is all but eliminated. With aluminium it is the only process worth considering. Weight can be saved on a steel frame against a brazed frame either lugged or fillet brazed. There is less filler rod, the butts can be shorter as less heat is involved and obviously you lose a complete set of lugs and the sockets on the BB shell. Mechanically a perfectly good way of building a frame, aesthetically not so sure IMHO.

 

[Eurostar]

Above a certain price the overall quality probably won't get any better. You'll be paying for hand built instead of mass-produced or a better or more distinctive paint job or something else.

To expand on that: all the framebuilders mentioned in this thread, and the many other British outfits who build steel frames, are building by hand. No factories involved. We're talking about firms with between 1 and 5 employees. They generally sell direct to the customer. Typical price for 853 Pro frame including forks but without headset is £1200.

The big bike brands, i.e. Spesh, Giant, Trek, use factories, sometimes their own, or sometimes subcontractors in the Far East. The production lines for the steel and cro moly frames have girt big clever machines. The frames are generally sold to the retailer, who sells them to customer. Two profit margins must be found. Going back a few years, retailers used to want a 30% margin. I don't know what it is these days.

All of which makes it very hard to assess value for money when buying a frame. It's even more difficult with carbon, because you hardly ever know who the tube manufacturer is.

 

[bpsmith]

But they want rapha and donhou, so what right do have to sit at your pc/tablet/laptop/smartphone......to call them a mug, for spending their money on something they wish/desire and have the financial ability to do so?

My money is on Android Tablet. C'mon @Citius be honest?

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

Why will it outlast carbon fibre?

Eh? I never said it would.

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

Go on then, Einstein - you tell me why an 853 frame should be 'for life' and not a Charge Plug??

Einstein, Ha!

I would have thought that most of those who paid top premium for a 853 Pro tube hand-built custom bike, would be thinking of keeping it long term.

I don't think the same applies to run of the mill cheapo bikes.

My statement wasn't about longevity of materials.

 

[Hugh Manatee]

@screenman it is a Mike Kowal. I think he retired from actual building frames a while ago. I was so impressed I had a fixed built up as well.

 

[shouldbeinbed]

I don't get the fuss, they're operating in a market economy, they're not a single source monopoly exploiting a tied customer base, there will not be anyone putting a loaded gun to our heads compelling us to buy or die. If we don't buy this product, our loved ones will not starve to death in a gutter.

What exactly are they doing wrong in assigning a value they feel is appropriate to their non essential product in an open and competitive marketplace?

 

[ayceejay]

Exteando is a

It isn't plain ole 853, like my Genesis, it is 853 ProTeam tubes, which I imagine commands a premium price.
It's hand built, from 853 ProTeam, which I imagine commands a premium price.
It's hand built, from 853 ProTeam, in London, which I imagine commands a premium price.
It's hand built, from 853 ProTeam, in London, by someone who wins prizes for their creations at bespoke bike shows, which I imagine commands a premium price.
It's hand built, from 853 ProTeam, in London, by someone who wins prizes for their creations at bespoke bike shows, and who commands a premium price which will guarantee a degree of exclusivity, which I imagine commands a premium price.

Yeah but why is it so expensive

 

[midlife]

Did someone mention Mike Kowal . That's a name from my era, managed to turn out really nice frames from his Autostrada outfit .... About 25 a week

Shaun

 

[GrumpyGregry]

853 is not a particularly special tubeset. There are several tubesets above it in the Reynolds catalogue. Like Smokin Joe says, I don't see it as being any more 'for life' than any other steel tubeset.

Three above. Six below. So, by any sensible definition, it is a special tubeset.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Well, the price mainly. Specifically, the price in relation to what comparable items would cost from other suppliers. We've been through this already.

What's comparable?