How many of you stick to the speed limit while driving??
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Linford
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It's gone awfully quiet on this thread now that the penny has dropped and that the 'King' of 'Speed Denier's' (or KoSD for short) has finally recognised that you really do have to be white than white in your own actions to criticise others for theirs.
I guess that the moral in this story comes back down to the maxim - 'When you're in a hole, stop digging'
but then again it could be - 'He who is free from sin shall cast the first stone'
or maybe even 'Hoisted by your own Petard'
In real terms (and I'm hoping you are paying attention KoSD) that a camera van or traffic officer will normally allow you to do a true speed (or the minimum legally factory calibrated), plus 10%, plus 2mph without feeling the need to call it in or in the KoSD's case, and that whilst they let 75mph in a 70mph limit slide, 'you' are still breaking the law - and as pointed out on so many occasions by the KoSD 'its a limit, not a target'
I guess that the moral in this story comes back down to the maxim - 'When you're in a hole, stop digging'
but then again it could be - 'He who is free from sin shall cast the first stone'
or maybe even 'Hoisted by your own Petard'
In real terms (and I'm hoping you are paying attention KoSD) that a camera van or traffic officer will normally allow you to do a true speed (or the minimum legally factory calibrated), plus 10%, plus 2mph without feeling the need to call it in or in the KoSD's case, and that whilst they let 75mph in a 70mph limit slide, 'you' are still breaking the law - and as pointed out on so many occasions by the KoSD 'its a limit, not a target'
stowie
Legendary Member
Against my better judgement I feel compelled to wade in.
Speeding is nearly always antisocial, often dangerous and always illegal. The fact whether I sometimes speed, always speed or have ever sped is completely irrelevant to this statement. I do not need to be "whiter than white" to realise and agree with this statement. The fact that the argument appears to be that one cannot be critical of speeding unless one has never transgressed this law seems flimsy at best.
The argument on speeding always appears to centre around the fact that the speeding driver appears to have a belief that they have an innate ability to risk assess the situation quickly and accurately and can determine their best speed better than an arbitrary limit. This argument fails on various counts.
Firstly, the vast majority of drivers appear to believe they are "good drivers". A great many appear to believe they have the reaction times of Button and the car control of Ari Vatanen, based upon "experience" and a 20 minute test. Unfortunately this is untrue. A great many drivers are shoot. There are a significant number who are spectacularly shoot. Most people are utterly rubbish at risk assessment even if they are amazing drivers. Enforced speed limits at least have some normalising effect on the worst excesses of these characteristics.
Secondly, the limit is normally not there for the speeding driver's benefit, but for the benefit of the pedestrians, cyclists, and other people who use, live on or near the road. Speeding along a road may be "safe" for the driver, but is almost certainly deeply antisocial for those having to live, cross or use the road alongside them.
It amazes me that we put up with our quality of life being degraded, our road space being made off limits to us, and more dangerous than it should be because some numpty wants to ignore speed limits to get to the Tescos 30 seconds before they would if they actually went slower and made everyones lives a bit more congenial and safer. Being a town dweller, I view my right to be able to amble across my road and not have cars career up and down it more highly than letting someone get to B+Q (or at least the next queue on the way to B+Q) fractions of a minute quicker than if they weren't antisocial, ignorant idiots.
stowie
Legendary Member
Whilst I am on a rant...
People who speed and justify it because they can risk assess almost always fall into the shoot or spectacularly shoot driving categories. This is almost by definition, but also because believing that speed limits aren't applicable normally means a reasonably high level of self delusion about their driving ability. Which, consequently, manifests itself in other areas of their driving.
And the speeding debate appears to have shifted from speeding in 20mph and 30mph limits, where the speeders have lost the high ground (apparently no-one speeds in these zones anymore, which is amazing since I still see a great many drivers completely ignoring these limits) to the argument that speeding on motorways is OK. It isn't. Not only are motorway designs really intended for around the speed limit and not, say, 100mph, the fact is that the motorway is shared by traffic, such as lorries, whose average speed is around 50-60mph. Motorways work more efficiently and are safer where relative speeds between traffic is kept within a reasonable boundary. Not only is having closing speeds of 40-50mph inherently dangerous, but the resulting braking and accelerating creates congestion.
And finally, the argument I hear with 20mph and 30mph is that they are fine in principle but jolly difficult to stick to. As if the driver isn't operating a piece of machinery but some kind of bucking bronco. I manage to keep to around these speeds by maintaining a relevant gear and judging speed based on how quickly the outside furniture is moving past. And then glancing at the speedo from time to time in order to amend my speed if required. It isn't difficult - I can do it, and I am really not a particularly great driver. And if a driver cannot master this basic skill, they fall between the spectacularly shoot camp and the "really shouldn't be let out on their own" camp.
People who speed and justify it because they can risk assess almost always fall into the shoot or spectacularly shoot driving categories. This is almost by definition, but also because believing that speed limits aren't applicable normally means a reasonably high level of self delusion about their driving ability. Which, consequently, manifests itself in other areas of their driving.
And the speeding debate appears to have shifted from speeding in 20mph and 30mph limits, where the speeders have lost the high ground (apparently no-one speeds in these zones anymore, which is amazing since I still see a great many drivers completely ignoring these limits) to the argument that speeding on motorways is OK. It isn't. Not only are motorway designs really intended for around the speed limit and not, say, 100mph, the fact is that the motorway is shared by traffic, such as lorries, whose average speed is around 50-60mph. Motorways work more efficiently and are safer where relative speeds between traffic is kept within a reasonable boundary. Not only is having closing speeds of 40-50mph inherently dangerous, but the resulting braking and accelerating creates congestion.
And finally, the argument I hear with 20mph and 30mph is that they are fine in principle but jolly difficult to stick to. As if the driver isn't operating a piece of machinery but some kind of bucking bronco. I manage to keep to around these speeds by maintaining a relevant gear and judging speed based on how quickly the outside furniture is moving past. And then glancing at the speedo from time to time in order to amend my speed if required. It isn't difficult - I can do it, and I am really not a particularly great driver. And if a driver cannot master this basic skill, they fall between the spectacularly shoot camp and the "really shouldn't be let out on their own" camp.
stowie
Legendary Member
Did the speed awareness course work? I have heard people come away saying it changed their attitudes, other people joking about it (which may be bravado or not).
If I had my way, these courses would be mandatory for speeding offences and involve sitting in a room watching tapes of the aftermath of car accidents and then explaining the need to speed to victims of speed related accidents. And if that didn't work they could go out with the traffic police for a day or so to help them out with dealing with the consequences of speeding. And if that didn't work I would take away their cars and license. And if that didn't work they would go to prison.
Linford
Guest
Can you tell us as a percentage exactly how many accidents are caused by :-
A) inappropriate speed being used within the posted limits
B) breaking the posted limits
C) using the mobile phone, picking ones nose, texting
Can you also tell us how you know this for sure:-
Ta
FWIW, last time I came off my bike was due to inappropriate speed - I got on the gas too early out of a corner and ran wide. I was doing 50 or 60 when the front washed out and I lowsided
stowie
Legendary Member
Yeh it does to be honest. Although it was my second, so they cant work that well
You'll never mitigate against "shit happens" and if you drive enough miles, shit WILL happpen. Which has been my point all along really.
I have driven many more miles than average over the last 10 years, and shoot does happen. But the shoot that happens tends to be much less serious with lower speeds than with higher. In towns there is little excuse for going above 20mph to 30mph.
What really changed my attitude was riding a bicycle. You develop a much more holistic approach to journeys when you use a bicycle, and I realised that the major time spent in urban car journeys is in queues and that no amount of speeding inbetween queues is going to change your overall journey time. So, not only is urban speeding completely antisocial, dangerous and illegal, it is also utterly futile. On a motorway, travelling significantly faster than 70mph will shorten journey times, but again it is amazing how little this affects your overall journey time (most people don't start and finish journeys on a Motorway for a start) and that any minimal gain by speeding is still more than wiped out by any traffic en route.
stowie
Legendary Member
Can you tell us as a percentage exactly how many accidents are caused by :-
A) inappropriate speed being used within the posted limits
B) breaking the posted limits
C) using the mobile phone, picking ones nose, texting
Can you also tell us how you know this for sure:-
Ta
Ah, the old canard about speeding not causing accidents. Even if that is true (although it almost certainly isn't and the "evidence" that speeding defenders use is rubbish), the fact is that, in an accident, the speed of a car is critical to the outcome of the accident. We, as a society, accept that we need to make progress when travelling and this necessitates risk. The 20mph or 30mph limits on urban roads appears a more than equitable compromise, especially since one considers that journey times will be dictated much more by congestion than maximum allowed limits. They become even more equitable when one realises the damage to vulnerable road users increases massively with each 10mph of added car speed. So that chap picking his nose whilst travelling at 20mph has a much better chance at firstly avoiding an accident even with his concentration compromised by nose picking than at 40mph, but also that if he has an accident, the consequences are much less severe.
I don't have to defend staying within the law. After all, it's the law. I would be delighted if you could prove to everyone how speeding actually is irrelevant to accidents and the consequences.
stowie
Legendary Member
More importantly, Smeggers needs to reveal the secret as to why when I write "shoot" it comes out as s***, but when he writes "shoot" it comes out as "shoot". (shoot, this post isn't going to make any sense if this automatic censorship asterisks out all my swearwords. farking technology. B******.)
Linford
Guest
bingo - you don't have break a limit to cause a speed related accident.
According to figures lifted from a DFT report in 07 only 2% of accidents by experienced drivers (+25) were caused by exceeding the posted limits.
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1974.asp
Linford
Guest
I'm not the one bleating about having to go on a speed awareness course. Consider yourself lucky that you got the chance to go on one
Another way of putting it is 98% of accidents are not caused by experienced drivers exceeding the posted limits
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