Hub/Axle needs lubing (again?)...

[Maz]

Hi

When I lift up the rear end of my bike by lifting the saddle and spin the back wheel round in forward direction ("freewheeling") by hand as hard as possible, the wheel will only spin for 5-6 seconds before coming to a halt.

It should spin for a lot longer than that, right?

About a month or so ago, I removed the rear axle, lubed the bearings, flushed out the freehub body and re-lubed with engine oil. On re-assembly, the wheel would spin quite freely. Now it seems I'm back to square one with a rough-sounding spin.

Any explanation? What should I do? Same again, i.e. relube exercise?

 

[gbb]

A couple of possibilities Maz..
Did you only use engine oil ? Thats fine, but you've really got to keep applying it or it'll run out...ergo, less lubricant shortly after. Even if you did grease then use engine oil, it'll dilute the grease, therefor a shorter life could be expected. Engine oils fine where you could reapply it regularly, thats why you used to see oil plugs in older bike's hubs and even BBs.
Grease is a better option nowadays, no oil.

Absolutely sure you tightened up the cones correctly ? If a locknut's comes loose, it'll allow the cone to move about over time, perhaps thats a possibility.

Also i've found where the cones have been damaged, you adjust, lube...and it goes again a while after.

Bent axle ? similar to above...it seems fine, but soon goes again.

 

[mickle]

Also, if spinning it in reverse you are asking the wheel to spin but also drag the chain and chainset around with it - no wonder it doesn't spin for long. Try spinning it forwards for a better idea..

 

[Maz]

Thanks, gbb. I think I'll strip it down again and investigate.

Yes, I used car engine oil inside the freehub. I didn't remove the pawls or ratchets - I left the hub body intact and poured the oil into the freehub, draining off the excess. Re-tightening the cone was a bit hit-n-miss (I had a separate thread on this a few months back), so could be the cones not being tightened correctly.

I wish I knew what the heck was doing sometimes.

 

[Maz]

Also, if spinning it in reverse you are asking the wheel to spin but also drag the chain and chainset around with it - no wonder it doesn't spin for long. Try spinning it forwards for a better idea..

My mistake - I meant 'forward' ("freewheelin") i.e. the chain/crank remain stationary when doing the wheel spin.

 

[Cubist]

Hi

When I lift up the rear end of my bike by lifting the saddle and spin the back wheel round in forward direction ("freewheeling") by hand as hard as possible, the wheel will only spin for 5-6 seconds before coming to a halt.

It should spin for a lot longer than that, right?

About a month or so ago, I removed the rear axle, lubed the bearings, flushed out the freehub body and re-lubed with engine oil. On re-assembly, the wheel would spin quite freely. Now it seems I'm back to square one with a rough-sounding spin.

Any explanation? What should I do? Same again, i.e. relube exercise?

I take it you used grease to reseat the bearings, and flushed and lubed the freehub with the engine oil? That's OK, some freehub ratchets don't like much grease, and the oil won't have done any harm.

What you describe is either that the bearing cones have become tighter due to a loose locknut, or were damaged/pitted or in a pitted bearing race and the fresh grease initially masked the damage.

Eliminate the first by re-setting the bearing cones. Leave the merest hint of play in them as the QRs will tighten them up a tad. Always check for play after you've done up the QR.

Make sure you tighten the locknut on the fixed side absolutely solid, then regrease the bearings on that side. Then reseat the bearings on the adjustable side, and run the cone down the thread onto the bearings so that it just touches them. Spin the locknut onto the cone. Now, once you have found that "magic spot" where there is a whisper of play, put the cone spanners onto the flats of the locknut and cone. If you have a third hand, use it to make sure the axle itself doesn't turn as you turn the locknut and cone into each other. You should, if you are careful enough, be able to see whether the cone has moved relative to the axle. Dust seals back on and then wheel back into the dropouts. QR on and check for spin and play.

You should be able to tell now whether the bearings are too tight or whether there is some play. There's no quick method or magic formula, it's all about feel. (and trial and error)

Don't do yourself down, it sounds like you're willing to give it a go and ask questions when you need to .... how else will you learn!

 

[gbb]

I take it you used grease to reseat the bearings, and flushed and lubed the freehub with the engine oil? That's OK, some freehub ratchets don't like much grease, and the oil won't have done any harm.

What you describe is either that the bearing cones have become tighter due to a loose locknut, or were damaged/pitted or in a pitted bearing race and the fresh grease initially masked the damage.

Eliminate the first by re-setting the bearing cones. Leave the merest hint of play in them as the QRs will tighten them up a tad. Always check for play after you've done up the QR.

Make sure you tighten the locknut on the fixed side absolutely solid, then regrease the bearings on that side. Then reseat the bearings on the adjustable side, and run the cone down the thread onto the bearings so that it just touches them. Spin the locknut onto the cone. Now, once you have found that "magic spot" where there is a whisper of play, put the cone spanners onto the flats of the locknut and cone. If you have a third hand, use it to make sure the axle itself doesn't turn as you turn the locknut and cone into each other. You should, if you are careful enough, be able to see whether the cone has moved relative to the axle. Dust seals back on and then wheel back into the dropouts. QR on and check for spin and play.

You should be able to tell now whether the bearings are too tight or whether there is some play. There's no quick method or magic formula, it's all about feel. (and trial and error)

Don't do yourself down, it sounds like you're willing to give it a go and ask questions when you need to .... how else will you learn!

Thats important too...i used to miss that early on.

 

[Maz]

I take it you used grease to reseat the bearings, and flushed and lubed the freehub with the engine oil? That's OK, some freehub ratchets don't like much grease, and the oil won't have done any harm.

What you describe is either that the bearing cones have become tighter due to a loose locknut, or were damaged/pitted or in a pitted bearing race and the fresh grease initially masked the damage.

Eliminate the first by re-setting the bearing cones. Leave the merest hint of play in them as the QRs will tighten them up a tad. Always check for play after you've done up the QR.

Make sure you tighten the locknut on the fixed side absolutely solid, then regrease the bearings on that side. Then reseat the bearings on the adjustable side, and run the cone down the thread onto the bearings so that it just touches them. Spin the locknut onto the cone. Now, once you have found that "magic spot" where there is a whisper of play, put the cone spanners onto the flats of the locknut and cone. If you have a third hand, use it to make sure the axle itself doesn't turn as you turn the locknut and cone into each other. You should, if you are careful enough, be able to see whether the cone has moved relative to the axle. Dust seals back on and then wheel back into the dropouts. QR on and check for spin and play.

You should be able to tell now whether the bearings are too tight or whether there is some play. There's no quick method or magic formula, it's all about feel. (and trial and error)

Don't do yourself down, it sounds like you're willing to give it a go and ask questions when you need to .... how else will you learn!

First and foremost, thanks for taking the time and effort to help me out.

Yes, I used grease to reseat the bearings. I used "Park Polylube 1000" for the job.

Dumb question...how can the cone become tighter if the locknut has become looser? Look at this diagram:
http://www.parktool....lp/hubparts.jpg
If the locknut becomes loose, doesn't it imply the cone will become loose, too?

When you say "fixed side" do you mean the side opposite the freehub?

I'll check the cones soon...better have my camera at the ready.

Thanks

 

[Maz]

ok, i just removed the wheel and straightaway i notice that the locknut on the driveside [i.e. same side as the cassette] is loose and easily rotatable by hand...this shouldn't happen, should it?

 

[Cubist]

There's your problem. The loose locknut simply means that the cone can move relative to the axle, and it will move away from the locknut and into the bearings, taking up the slack or play, and giving the symptons you describe. .

Hubs tend to have one side where you can't get to the cone flats, often because they are recessed into the freehub body, or on some MTB hubs recessed into the rotor mounts. That side therefore becomes the "fixed side".. you can remove the axle and tighten the locknut to the cone as hard as you like. The other side is the adjust side, because that's the one you can reach with the spanners once it's on the bike.

Getting the locknuts tight to the cones without knacking the fine setting is a real art, and has, in the past, had me close to tears of frustration.

 

[Maz]

OK, yes, the cone on the same side as the freehub is indeed recessed slightly. In my case the locknut on this side was the one that was loose.

Thing is, though, when it comes to tightening up both locknuts, won't it apply pressure onto the cones (and thus the bearings) and prevent the wheel from spinning freely?

 

[gbb]

OK, yes, the cone on the same side as the freehub is indeed recessed slightly. In my case this is the locknut that was loose.

Thing is, though, when it comes to tightening up both locknuts, won't it apply pressure onto the cones (and thus the bearings) and prevent the wheel from spinning freely?

I always work this way...consider the drive side 'fixed'..the locknuts and cones are harder to get at at first, so its easier to undo the non drive side. I dont touch the drive side cone/locknut at all unless there's something wrong with it (pitted cone)
So, you've got to hold the cone (non drive side) with a spanner, then tighten the locknut to the cone...while making sure the axle doesnt spin as well. (this throws out your newly adjusted settings)

Because the locknut came loose, the cone can't move outwards, the fork s stop that, so it can only move inwards...tightening up the hub.

 

[Cubist]

OK, yes, the cone on the same side as the freehub is indeed recessed slightly. In my case this is the locknut that was loose.

Thing is, though, when it comes to tightening up both locknuts, won't it apply pressure onto the cones (and thus the bearings) and prevent the wheel from spinning freely?

No, that's the art of it all. You need to undo the locknut and cone that you can reach and slide the axle out. You then have the axle with one cone and one locknut on it. Using cone spanners put one onto the cone and one onto the locknut. Squeeze them together as hard as you can by hand, thus locking the cone in place on the axle. Whatever happens from here, this will never move.

Regrease and reset the bearings in their races and slide the axle on from the recessed side. Be careful not to disturb the bearings on the other side as you do so.
You now have the recessed, fixed side in place.

Spin the cone onto the axle on the adjustable side, and turn it until you feel it meet the bearings. Get a feel for the fine point between over tight and too slack.

Holding the cone in place with one had, spin the locknut onto the thread until it meets the cone. Now, this is the bit where you need to take extra care. Using two cone spanners put one onto the cone spanner flats and hold this firmly in place, but don't let the cone move on the threads, or else you will spoil the sweetspot you have found for the cone.

Put the second spanner on the locknut flats and, still making absolutely sure the cone doesn't move down the threads towards the bearings, tighten the locknut. This needs to be tightened down onto the cone, as moving the cone towards the locknut will introduce play. I find it helps to get the spanners so that I can squeeze them together with one hand.

 

[Maz]

cubist, gbb...i 'think' i almost hit the sweetspot, it's certainly a heck of a lot better...i did the 2-spanners-in-1-hand as suggested, trying my best to make sure the cone didnt budge from the sweetspot... i can now get about 15-20 seconds of freewheeling [as mentiond way back in my first post]....Anyway the loose locknut on the fixed [drive] side was the culprit and since tightening it, it seems a lot better.

i can fully appreciate the ball-ache of hitting the sweetspot...and more so, retaining the sweetspot whilst tightening the locknut up to the cone.

many thanks again for yor help...much appreciated.

my keyboard is now covered in greasy fingerprints....

 

[mickle]

.... my keyboard is now covered in greasy fingerprints....