Hybrids, they don't exist!

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zigzag

Veteran
there is no other term that could describe "hybrid". in my understanding fast hybrid is based on a road bike geometry, but with longer top tube and flat bars; slower hybrid is flat bar bike based on a more relaxed geometry (touring, leisure type). i understand city bikes as dutch style sit up bikes. too many names for bikes and there is no hard and fast rule what is what, i agree.
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
I'm sorry, but the non-existence of hybrids is their most precious quality. Hybrids simply aren't - they are bikes that have no other definition. They will be geared, because they are not singlespeed or fixed bikes, they will have straight bars because they are not road or racing bikes, and they won't cost a lot because nobody is going to pay a fortune for a bike without an identity.

Mine's yellow, by the way

Kafka-esque stuff! I've always been a bit bored by them, but I have to admit you're selling it!
 

Norm

Guest
there is no other term that could describe "hybrid". in my understanding fast hybrid is based on a road bike geometry, but with longer top tube and flat bars; slower hybrid is flat bar bike based on a more relaxed geometry (touring, leisure type). i understand city bikes as dutch style sit up bikes. too many names for bikes and there is no hard and fast rule what is what, i agree.
"Road bike with flat bars" and "Rigid MTB" or "Soft Roader" work well enough for me and do at least allow for the basic distinctions. :thumbsup:

I don't see that any single term should cover these two offerings...

 

RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London
"Road bike with flat bars" and "Rigid MTB" or "Soft Roader" work well enough for me and do at least allow for the basic distinctions. :thumbsup:

I don't see that any single term should cover these two offerings...


Since I truly did not know what they are, I typed "Soft Roader" in trusty google and every single reference on the 1st page is a motor vehicle (suv type thing to be more precise)
ohmy.gif
so perhaps we should leave that?

Just exploring your suggestion a bit further, if we call those two offerings "Rigid MTB" (perhaps you meant hardtail?) and flat bar road bike, what do you suggest we call those in between? and in any case can someone define the borderline(s)?

I was nearly ready to damn "hybrid" as the OP suggested until I discovered I couldn't even define them. I was stuck in finding the distinction between hardtails (with or without front sus) and hybrids.

While one might say the lack of clear definition is the reason not to use the term, to me that argument is defensible only if one has better alternative(s). While I haven't given it much thought, I suspect alternative labels/definitions that cover the genre adequately are even more confusing to people on the street, if indeed possible to identify.
 

gbb

Legendary Member
Location
Peterborough
I dont think we're giving the 'hybrid' buying masses (people who are not enthusiasts or commited cyclists...just regular cycle buyers) credit to be able to filter what they definately do, and dont want from the wide range of bikes that can be called hybrids.
A girl at work just brought a dutch style, very relaxed geometry ladies bike. To her its a hybrid nontheless, but she was quite insistent on exactly what she wanted...but its still a hybrid in her eyes. Shes neither an enthusiast or a commited cyclist, just a girl who wanted a bike for pleasure.
BTW, she didnt know it was called a dutch style bike...when she told me what she wanted, i enlightened her. So she'd have been no better off if it were classified specifically as dutch and not a hybrid.

I suspect the term hybrid causes average joe public no problem whatsoever.
 
OP
OP
mickle

mickle

innit
This is how I set up the classifications for Cyclorama.


If I was starting from scratch again I might do it differently based on a set of parameters rather than 'types of bike'.


There isn't a hybrid...





Street Bikes

Road bikes and Racers

* Road Racing

* Touring

* Time Trial and Triathlon

* Audax and Randonneur

* Road - Custom

Mountain and Off-Road Bikes

* Mountain Bike - Cross Country

* Mountain Bike - Marathon

* Mountain Bike - All Mountain

* Mountain Bike - Dirt Jump

* Mountain Bike - Free Ride

* Mountain Bike - Down Hill

* Mountain Bike - Expedition Touring

* Mountain Bike - Single Speed

* Mountain Bike - Other Wheel Sizes

* Mountain Bike - Folding

* Mountain Bike - Specialist

* Mountain Bike - Custom

* Off Road - Cyclocross

* Off Road - Trikes and Quads

* Off Road - Recumbents

* Off Road - Speedway

* Off Road - Lite

Fixed wheel bikes

* Fixed wheel - Track

* Fixed wheel - Road

BMX

* BMX Race

* BMX Dirt

* BMX Street

* BMX Park and Flatland

* BMX Alternative wheel sizes

Electric Cycles

* Electric Bicycles

* Electric Tricycles and Quads

Load Carrying

* Cargo Hauling

* People Moving

Children's Cycles

* Walking Bikes

* Pedal Cycles

Tandems

* Tandems - Street

* Tandems - Road

* Tandems - Off-Road

* Tandems - Sociable

* Tandems - Recumbent

* Tandems - Other

Mobility

* Hand Cranked and Wheelchairs

* Tricycles

* Upright Trikes and Quads

* Recumbent Trikes

* Hand-cranked Trikes

Recumbents and Velomobiles

* Recumbent Bicycles

* Velomobiles

* Recumbent Trikes and Quads

Family

Folding Cycles

* Folding Bicycles

* Folding Tricycles and Quads

Custom Bikes and Frames

Fun and Innovative

* Other fun stuff

Vintage, Classics and Designer Bikes

* Vintage and Classic

* Designer bikes
 

Mr Celine

Discordian
To me a hybrid is more about what it can do then what it looks like. I've a Raleigh Pioneer which is used both on and off road and to me it's a hybrid. I've also got a Specialized Sirrus which might look similar to the Pioneer to the untrained eye, but it has slightly different geometry, is made of different materials, it's useless off road and it's definitely not a hybrid.
 

Norm

Guest
Since I truly did not know what they are, I typed "Soft Roader" in trusty google and every single reference on the 1st page is a motor vehicle (suv type thing to be more precise)
ohmy.gif
so perhaps we should leave that?
That's exactly the reason I think "soft roader" is appropriate for bikes like the Specialized CrossTrail, a vehicle designed for the road but looking rufty tufty and able to take on mild off-roading.

I don't see a problem with borrowing a term currently being used for cars - quite the opposite, I see that as being a benefit as many already know and understand the phrase. And the similarity in design and philosophy between something like the Specialized CrossTrail and something like the Land Rover Freelander would help people understand the intended market rather than confuse.

Just exploring your suggestion a bit further, if we call those two offerings "Rigid MTB" (perhaps you meant hardtail?) and flat bar road bike, what do you suggest we call those in between? and in any case can someone define the borderline(s)?
I didn't mean hardtail or I would have said hardtail. The Charge Mixer and the Specialized Cross Trail are both called hybrids in the trade, though, and they could barely be more different in use.

As for between, there is no term for a bike between a tourer and an audax, or a road racer and a CX, although the grey areas exist just as much between those as they do between all the bikes currently lumped under the word hybrids.

Road or off-road, that's the difference, it's one that doesn't exist in any other single cycle market (using mickle's list) and it is fundamental to getting the wrong bike.

I was nearly ready to damn "hybrid" as the OP suggested until I discovered I couldn't even define them. I was stuck in finding the distinction between hardtails (with or without front sus) and hybrids.
Again, you can't define the term because it is meaningless. This is the reason I shy away from using it when there are so many better alternatives available.

While one might say the lack of clear definition is the reason not to use the term, to me that argument is defensible only if one has better alternative(s). While I haven't given it much thought, I suspect alternative labels/definitions that cover the genre adequately are even more confusing to people on the street, if indeed possible to identify.
I've suggested a couple (flat-barred road bike and rigid MTB) would cover the two main categories.

Cut the smoke and distractions, though, does anyone think that it is sensible to put these two bikes into the same category?

 
OP
OP
mickle

mickle

innit
I think part of the problem is that it is just so vague.

High-breeds appeared around 1990 when the mountain bike boom started to flatten out. The factories thought they had been through this sort of thing before. The BMX boom of the eighties didn't drop off slowly it plummeted overnight to virtually zero. Factories were left with thousands of unsold units and silent production lines. So they were terrified of history repeating itself and the threat of a huge drop in sales. So they saw mountain bike sales plateau and they freaked. They racked their minds to come up with the 'next big thing'. Someone came up with the terrific idea of installing mountain bike parts on a 700c touring bike frame. This wasn't particularly revolutionary - mountain bikes were invented when someone installed a wide range multi-speed transmission and cantilever brakes on a 26" cruiser. The innovation, if it even qualifies as an innovation, was the flat mountain bike bars. Folk had been fitting wide flat bars to 'racers' for years, it wasn't rocket science. That it allowed the manufacturers to use 700c parts that had been languishing around the factory storerooms was a convenient bonus. The sales pitch such as it was went like this - everybody buys mountain bikes which they ride around in town - this 'new' bike combines all of the best features of touring bikes and mountain bikes, low rolling resistance and a commanding riding position.

The lie was that this new type of bike was the best of both worlds when it came to riding on road and off-road.

It took them ages to settle on a name for this new machine - they weren't all called hybrids in the beginning. Cross trainers, Cross Overs.. someone tried 'Cross Bike' until it was pointed out that it was already taken.

Misleading, inadequate 'Hybrid' stuck simply because no came up with a better alternative. I think the mistake was to try to name them at all. They're just street bikes. Which differentiates them from 'Road bikes' and 'Off-road bikes perfectly well.
 
I don't mind the name hybrid but I like it to be categorised a bit better; such as a mtb orientated hybrid or a road going hybrid (aka a flat bar road bike) and I dare say there are a few others in between; city bikes etc. Its not their fault but too many people are told a hybrid would be ideal for them but imo its too broad a term on its own an in a way that irks me.
 

RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London
Way to douse my own thread!

No Mickle. It was your Cyclorama classification, which CCer is heartless enough to tell someone to mess with 16 categories and 54 subcategories in existence?
biggrin.gif


Just for the sake of playing devil's advocate, I googled "street bike", and found most of the references on the first page relating to motorcycles, followed by purveyors of motorbikes/bicycles using street address in their name... Of course we are all free to advocating a new or resurrecting an old label to replace 'hybrid', or swim against a tide, but the heart of the issue is perhaps not the label.

It seems to me the main criticisms of the hybrid label are:
1) It is too vague/broad
2) The term is meaningless (e.g. because most bikes are hybrids of something else)
3) There is no such thing

I don't really understand 3) because as raindog said we must be talking about nothing otherwise. 2) is technically true but in practice I suspect most of us believe it meant a flat-ish bar thing with mixed road/mtb components/features. As Mickle's useful historic review seems to indicate, road and mtb were main market categories, so the birth of the genre if not the name was probably inevitable, and they did represent progress since many were riding mtbs mainly on roads. While hybrids might not be the best of both worlds, they can be a useful compromise to many.

If you are still following me then perhaps 1) is effectively saying hybrid's success is resulting in its current curse - this "new" category is now covering too many too broadly, just like bicycle is too broad a label if none other exists. I don't think I can argue with that.

To examine this "too vague/broad" issue, Mickle when you said "If I was starting from scratch again I might do it differently based on a set of parameters rather than 'types of bike'.", what did you have in mind?
 

3narf

For whom the bell dings
Location
Tetbury
Please everyone, stop refering to hybrids, there is no such thing.



Tune in next OP for 'Clipless pedals, they don't exist!'


Yeah, I get what you're saying. Hybrid/general purpose should be the default position; these bikes shouldn't be singled out because they are more logical!

Same as athiests should be called 'normal people' and religious people should be called 'pointy heads.'

Bikes have become very narrow-focussed in terms of their abilities in recent years, due to an embarrassment of disposable income amongst buyers who can afford one of each (as they are usually still living with their mums). I predict a growth in the numbers of 'do everything' bikes in the next couple of decades; however, we'll probably still refer to them as hybrids due to our disposition to categorise everything for convenience...
 
This is how I set up the classifications for Cyclorama.


Street Bikes

Road bikes and Racers

* Road Racing

* Touring

* Time Trial and Triathlon

* Audax and Randonneur

* Road - Custom

Mountain and Off-Road Bikes

* Mountain Bike - Cross Country

* Mountain Bike - Marathon

* Mountain Bike - All Mountain

* Mountain Bike - Dirt Jump

* Mountain Bike - Free Ride

* Mountain Bike - Down Hill

* Mountain Bike - Expedition Touring

* Mountain Bike - Single Speed

* Mountain Bike - Other Wheel Sizes

* Mountain Bike - Folding

* Mountain Bike - Specialist

* Mountain Bike - Custom

* Off Road - Cyclocross

* Off Road - Trikes and Quads

* Off Road - Recumbents

* Off Road - Speedway

* Off Road - Lite

Fixed wheel bikes

* Fixed wheel - Track

* Fixed wheel - Road

BMX

* BMX Race

* BMX Dirt

* BMX Street

* BMX Park and Flatland

* BMX Alternative wheel sizes

Electric Cycles

* Electric Bicycles

* Electric Tricycles and Quads

Load Carrying

* Cargo Hauling

* People Moving

Children's Cycles

* Walking Bikes

* Pedal Cycles

Tandems

* Tandems - Street

* Tandems - Road

* Tandems - Off-Road

* Tandems - Sociable

* Tandems - Recumbent

* Tandems - Other

Mobility

* Hand Cranked and Wheelchairs

* Tricycles

* Upright Trikes and Quads

* Recumbent Trikes

* Hand-cranked Trikes

Recumbents and Velomobiles

* Recumbent Bicycles

* Velomobiles

* Recumbent Trikes and Quads

Family

Folding Cycles

* Folding Bicycles

* Folding Tricycles and Quads

Custom Bikes and Frames

Fun and Innovative

* Other fun stuff

Vintage, Classics and Designer Bikes

* Vintage and Classic

* Designer bikes

Very comprehensive, Mickle, a good list!

You forgot the unicycle! ;)
 
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