Mark_Robson
Senior Member
- Location
- West Boldon Tyne & Wear
9 out of 10 cats would agree.
I have my mind changed about helmets!
- Thread starter XmisterIS
- Start date
- Status
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I don't care what you choose to wear or not wear. If only the helmet lobby would reciprocate and respect the right of people to choose not to wear one.
I'd be interested to know where you think I've preached to you. I try to restrict myself to either setting out the evidence or challenging statements with the evidence.
david k
Hi
- Location
- North West
so its possible the stats prove that drivers are more aware of the dangers? this could make cycling look safer than it is because drivers are making adjustments to suit eh?
Which is exactly why education would be a far better use of resources than the victim blaming cult of pro helmetism.
No, they don't prove that. There is insufficient information to say what the reasons are.
What on earth is that supposed to mean?
david k
Hi
- Location
- North West
in relation to the suggestion that drivers make adjustments to driving for boris bikes
The evidence is already out there.
Two independent studies show that motorists look at helmeted cyclists at being more capable and competent - the DfT on attitudes further showed that drivers ended to give less room and pass at a higher speed because they would be able to cope with a fast close pass!
Applying the theory would indeed suggest that drivers would give more room and pass more cautiously when they see a Boris Bike.
However the fact still remains that if cycling was that dangerous there would be a history of deaths and head injuries that has simply not ocurred.... and it would be headlined as all the usual suspects are campaigning for "Boris Helmets"
[QUOTE 1415029"]
If you're talking about the Bristol study, I think you are talking it up a bit. It was a very small study that didn't show anything. It made some suggestions, but that's about all.
[/quote]
I think you mean the Bath study, Walker, I. (2007). Drivers overtaking bicyclists: Objective data on the effects of riding position, helmet use, vehicle type and apparent gender. Accident Analysis and Prevention, 39, 417-425.
"Overall, the results demonstrate that motorists exhibit behavioural sensitivity to aspects of a bicyclist's appearance during an encounter" is more than a suggestion and "shows" something. It also showed
"The relationship between rider position and overtaking proximity was the opposite to that generally believed, such that the further the rider was from the edge of the road, the closer vehicles passed. Additionally, wearing a bicycle helmet led to traffic getting significantly closer when overtaking. Professional drivers of large vehicles were particularly likely to leave narrow safety margins."
If you're talking about the Bristol study, I think you are talking it up a bit. It was a very small study that didn't show anything. It made some suggestions, but that's about all.
[/quote]
I think you mean the Bath study, Walker, I. (2007). Drivers overtaking bicyclists: Objective data on the effects of riding position, helmet use, vehicle type and apparent gender. Accident Analysis and Prevention, 39, 417-425.
"Overall, the results demonstrate that motorists exhibit behavioural sensitivity to aspects of a bicyclist's appearance during an encounter" is more than a suggestion and "shows" something. It also showed
"The relationship between rider position and overtaking proximity was the opposite to that generally believed, such that the further the rider was from the edge of the road, the closer vehicles passed. Additionally, wearing a bicycle helmet led to traffic getting significantly closer when overtaking. Professional drivers of large vehicles were particularly likely to leave narrow safety margins."
[QUOTE 1415031"]
Yup, that's the one. And if you read what you've quoted you'll see that suggestions are required for the reasons behind the behaviour, as I said.
[/quote]
But the behaviour is demonstrated even if the reasons behind it are speculative. That is very different from your claim that the study didn't show anything and only made suggestions.
Yup, that's the one. And if you read what you've quoted you'll see that suggestions are required for the reasons behind the behaviour, as I said.
[/quote]
But the behaviour is demonstrated even if the reasons behind it are speculative. That is very different from your claim that the study didn't show anything and only made suggestions.
[QUOTE 1415033"]
Apologies for being unclear. What I meant is that the small study does not show what Cunobelin said. Yes, it showed that there were differences in the passes, but it doesn't show why.[/quote]
Wrong again I'm afraid. It shows that drivers pass closer if the cyclist a) is riding further out in the road, b) is wearing a helmet, c) the driver is a professional driver and d) the cyclist is wearing a blond wig. Why the drivers exhibit those behaviours is not known though but the fact they do has been shown.
You'll need to ask Cunobelin which the other study he was referring to.
Apologies for being unclear. What I meant is that the small study does not show what Cunobelin said. Yes, it showed that there were differences in the passes, but it doesn't show why.[/quote]
Wrong again I'm afraid. It shows that drivers pass closer if the cyclist a) is riding further out in the road, b) is wearing a helmet, c) the driver is a professional driver and d) the cyclist is wearing a blond wig. Why the drivers exhibit those behaviours is not known though but the fact they do has been shown.
You'll need to ask Cunobelin which the other study he was referring to.
[QUOTE 1415029"]
If you're talking about the Bristol study, I think you are talking it up a bit. It was a very small study that didn't show anything. It made some suggestions, but that's about all.
[/quote]
The Bristol Study (Ian Walker) has its limitations, but interestingly does back up the DfT research paper on motorists attitude to cyclists. This is is the main one that shows that motorists react differently when they consider cyclists to be "competent"..
The fact that two independent studies have similar results does reinforce the suggestion.
If you're talking about the Bristol study, I think you are talking it up a bit. It was a very small study that didn't show anything. It made some suggestions, but that's about all.
[/quote]
The Bristol Study (Ian Walker) has its limitations, but interestingly does back up the DfT research paper on motorists attitude to cyclists. This is is the main one that shows that motorists react differently when they consider cyclists to be "competent"..
The fact that two independent studies have similar results does reinforce the suggestion.
[QUOTE 1415036"]
None of which was mentioned by Cunobelin and challenged by me.
It might help you if you followed the discussion that's going on, rather than disagreeing about what's not being said. I'm not sure whether you're just not following it or are being awkward. If you need any clarification please ask.
[/quote]
Maybe you are being a bit sloppy in your wording but your previous post said very clearly that "it showed that there were differences in the passes, but it doesn't show why."
It does show why. The why's are the four I listed. Why do they pass closer? Because you are wearing a helmet or you are not wearing a blond wig or you are cycling further out in the road or its a professional driver. What it doesn't show, which is perhaps what you intended to say, is the mechanisms behind those why's.
So step away from the high horse.
None of which was mentioned by Cunobelin and challenged by me.
It might help you if you followed the discussion that's going on, rather than disagreeing about what's not being said. I'm not sure whether you're just not following it or are being awkward. If you need any clarification please ask.
[/quote]
Maybe you are being a bit sloppy in your wording but your previous post said very clearly that "it showed that there were differences in the passes, but it doesn't show why."
It does show why. The why's are the four I listed. Why do they pass closer? Because you are wearing a helmet or you are not wearing a blond wig or you are cycling further out in the road or its a professional driver. What it doesn't show, which is perhaps what you intended to say, is the mechanisms behind those why's.
So step away from the high horse.
[QUOTE 1415040"]
Acknowledging that I wasn't suggesting what you thought, but continuing to argue with me about what I didn't say. Interesting.
[/quote]
Whether you think you were suggesting it or not, its is what you wrote:
But I can't be arsed with "he said, she said" arguments with someone who writes sloppily and then protests things didn't mean what they actually wrote. You may have the last word.
Acknowledging that I wasn't suggesting what you thought, but continuing to argue with me about what I didn't say. Interesting.
[/quote]
Whether you think you were suggesting it or not, its is what you wrote:
But I can't be arsed with "he said, she said" arguments with someone who writes sloppily and then protests things didn't mean what they actually wrote. You may have the last word.
david k
Hi
- Location
- North West
so what are the key points to these studies?
- Status
