I never understood the point in..

[Rhythm Thief]

I know, I know. I was at university too ("Polytechnic", as it was then). My girlfriend of the time is now the admissions tutor for her department and she tells me every year how the academic standards of the first year intake are slipping. ("Plummeting" is the word she uses.) A lot of the first year now is taken up teaching students stuff they used to learn during their GCSEs, including in most cases how to write in proper English. I have no doubt that there are some excellent students still around, but our universities are sadly not the centres of academic excellence they once were. How can they be?

 

[marinyork]

True! But you must agree with me on this one? Universities have been vital to the progression of mankind's knowledge and understanding of the world in my opinion.

I can see why people would like to think so. I think libraries + communication have been vital. Universities certainly help a lot (say Göttingen).

There're still thousands of extremely talented academics who come out of the top universities. I wouldn't consider myself to be within that top category, but I'm predicted to get a first class for my chosen subject (Geography). I'm passionate about the subject and grateful for the opportunity to study.

It's a bit like getting into an argument about grammar or private schools, one can never win an argument because for the people that go to them some people become very attached and a vital part of their identity. For me personally, I don't think that. I think that I'd have learnt pretty much everything I learned whether I went to university or not. It is not especially interesting for me these matters, but then I would say that - I come from a subject that is notoriously anti-social.

 

[darkstar]

I know, I know. I was at university too ("Polytechnic", as it was then). My girlfriend of the time is now the admissions tutor for her department and she tells me every year how the academic standards of the first year intake are slipping. ("Plummeting" is the word she uses.) A lot of the first year now is taken up teaching students stuff they used to learn during their GCSEs, including in most cases how to write in proper English. I have no doubt that there are some excellent students still around, but our universities are sadly not the centres of academic excellence they once were. How can they be?

I don't doubt that the students at a poly are failing to rise to dizzy heights within academia. It's the top students at Oxbridge who will be the key.

 

[Haitch]

Belgium. I've lived there for years and I still don't see the point of it.

It is not France. It is not Holland. It is not Germany Three damn fine points, I think you'll agree.

 

[darkstar]

I can see why people would like to think so. I think libraries + communication have been vital. Universities certainly help a lot (say Göttingen).



It's a bit like getting into an argument about grammar or private schools, one can never win an argument because for the people that go to them some people become very attached and a vital part of their identity. For me personally, I don't think that. I think that I'd have learnt pretty much everything I learned whether I went to university or not. It is not especially interesting for me these matters, but then I would say that - I come from a subject that is notoriously anti-social.

Fair point, i suppose as you say it's all up to the individual. I personally find the personal contact with my tutor and lecturers the most important attribute to development. That will change between people though.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

I don't doubt that the students at a poly are failing to rise to dizzy heights within academia. It's the top students at Oxbridge who will be the key.

Well, perhaps. Although the girlfriend in question was the holder of a first in geology from Oxford.

For what it's worth, Polytechnics and Universities were too very different things, before the government turned polys into third rate universities. A poly supplied a more practical education: it wouldn't necessarily teach you specific things but it would teach you how to find these things out, which is much more useful in the long run. In addition to this, many polys ran field trips which were designed to allow the students to figure things out for themselves - tidal flow patterns or geological processes, in my case - and write up proper scientific reports using the data they'd gathered. My ex's time at Oxford was, according to her own account, mostly spent rote learning lists of fossil Latin names and doing fieldwork in a ridiculous gown.

It may well be that many of our great minds come from Oxbridge, but this may be because being able to put "MA Oxon" after your name opens a disproportionate number of doors in later life. I'd be very wary of dismissing the input of Polytechnics in such a cavalier fashion.

 

[Kirstie]

Fair point, i suppose as you say it's all up to the individual. I personally find the personal contact with my tutor and lecturers the most important attribute to development. That will change between people though.

Good point. The difficulty for academics who are teaching in universities is that increasing student numbers make it more difficult for these kinds of quality interaction. With little money around for tutorial support, as a university teacher, you are stuck with trying to reach massive classes and struggle to create opportunities for dialogue and debate. A low quality learning experience is one where the tutor just spouts at the class and they write it all down - it's better when you can get a dialogue going. So to get the quality with high numbers you quite often have to cut content. You can't win and it's soul destroying if you actually care and want to do a good job.

 

[gbb]

Algebra !!! never did get it.

 

[darkstar]

I'd be very wary of dismissing the input of Polytechnics in such a cavalier fashion.

Oh don't get me wrong, i'm certainly not dismissing the work Polytechnics do. I'm literally only considering the top class elite, which given their A level grades would naturally tend to attend established universities. I can't stand the trend for students from Red Bricks to slate Polytechnics. It happens in liverpool a fair bit. People from my uni (Uni of liverpool) claiming John Moors 'isn't a proper uni'. Thats bull, I got ABB at A level (messed around too much) and managed to get a place, so it's not particularly prestigious.

 

[darkstar]

Good point. The difficulty for academics who are teaching in universities is that increasing student numbers make it more difficult for these kinds of quality interaction. With little money around for tutorial support, as a university teacher, you are stuck with trying to reach massive classes and struggle to create opportunities for dialogue and debate. A low quality learning experience is one where the tutor just spouts at the class and they write it all down - it's better when you can get a dialogue going. So to get the quality with high numbers you quite often have to cut content. You can't win and it's soul destroying if you actually care and want to do a good job.

It must be tough on the staff, in my case there are 8 in my tutor group. I'm lucky that the tutor is a nice bloke, who i look up to. He always finds time to help students out, which i take full advantage of!

 

[automatic_jon]

Good gods what have I started!?

I'm not saying universities are pointless, certainly they are fine institutions for academics to work in, it keeps them off the streets causing trouble.

My intended target is degrees like nursing (or radiography, but people look at me blankly when I say that's what I do so we'll gloss over that). A nurse does not need a degree to provide care for a patient (IMHO) they need an understanding of anatomy and physiology, drug calculations and such, what they do not need is to be drummed off their course if their written work is not up to standard and they cannot reference correctly according to the Harvard APA system. (Which I fundamentally believe stands for A Pile'o Arse)

I feel too many very capable, compassionate people are being lost from front line, practical, positions because they are not academic enough for the course needed to attain the professional qualification. While there is surely a need to ensure people in these front line jobs are competent and diligent in their work I'm just not sure an academic qualification is the best way the ensure that. All such course were diploma qualifications until recently, my cousin is I believe one of the last to qualify as a nurse with a diploma and radiography has been a degree since the early 90's. From the way my lecturers have spoken of their training, it seems we have lost the focus on teaching people to do, to the benefit of teaching people to write (although not necessarily think) about doing.

I'm sure you can tell I have a vested interest in this, but my off hand comment seems to have inspired a debate (or at least a squabble) so I thought I'd clarify my statement.

This essay should kill the thread nicely

 

[Fnaar]

^^
Well said, automatic_jon... I agree entirely.

 

[e-rider]

leaf blowers - WTF

 

[darkstar]

Ahh well thats different! I obviously took the wrong summary from your original post. I completely agree with you.

Oh and I enjoy a debate/squabble, in fact I go searching for them

 

[Dayvo]

Toilet paper!

Well, I prefer using it to having a soiled crack all day, but let's be honest, do we really enjoy cleaning out the cotton balls (willnots) from the middle of our arses in the middle of the night?

Portable bidets, though, don't seem to practical!

Yet!