Increase in seizures of illegal ebikes

[Dogtrousers]

placing it at a level close to that of regular cyclists performance levels is probably sensible

I like to see myself as a representative of humanity in this case. My FTP is 250W or thereabouts (probably less at the moment) and 15.5 mph is about the speed I'd ride on a flat or slightly downhill road. So the current limits give the riders a free invisible lightweight version of me hidden inside the bike helping them along.

 

[Alex321]

Yet, all this illegal use could be sorted, just make the limits sensible.
Allow
20mph assist limit and 750W motor will cover probably 99.9% of rider uses

The current limits ARE sensible.

The ones you propose aren't, because it would mean e-bikes travelling far faster than most of their manual equivalents.

Few cyclists can keep up a speed of 20mph on the flat for long, and NONE can keep up 750W for more than a very few minutes.

 

[classic33]

I think that would fundamentally change the nature of what an EAPC is. Which may be a bit irrelevant now the cat is out of the bag, but anyway...

I think the original idea was for an ordinary bike that was to all intents like a bicycle but had a bit of assistance. 250W / 25km/h are relatively normal figures for an ordinary bike rider. They are human sized figures. So we have a nice way for less fit people to ride bikes in a comparable way to regular cyclists. That was the rather quaint idea behind EAPCs. They are still bikes, but require slightly less effort. And it's fine for them to be used on cycling and shared tracks.

But of course that's not what people want. People want electric motorbikes and light delivery vans (see this thread) that are completely unregulated. And EAPCs become a kind of Trojan horse for obtaining these.

Now, electric motorbikes and light delivery vans aren't necessary a bad thing. But they don't in any way fit with the original remit for an EAPC: An ordinary bike but with some assistance.

750W continuous rated power is inhuman. Not even elite cyclists put that out for prolonged periods. 20mph is a speed that most normal cyclists only achieve with gravity assistance and only very fit sporty types can maintain continuously on the road.

These might be reasonable limits for a new class of light electric moped (possibly subject to less regulation than ordinary mopeds). But they aren't suitable for EAPCs unless we want to throw away the original idea entirely.

Maybe it was just too quaint and optimistic to think that making bikes a bit more accessible would be a good thing, and not just the thin end of the wedge.

The regulations across Europe before the current set of regulations were brought into force varied from country to country. Ones that were legal wouldn't have been legal outside a French ferry terminal, or outside of Rotterdam's terminal. Limits, speed and power, varied too much across Europe. The UK didn't adopt the higher powered, faster class like many, but not all European countries. They are legally classed as mopeds under UK EPAC regulations. Speed pedelecs in parts of Europe, where they are known as Pedal Assisted Electric Cycles under the regulations.

You mentioned the speed attained by pro cyclists. Can I add that they are achieving those speeds on tyres a lot narrower than 4", and somewhat larger than 20"-22" wheels. On a frame that was built for speed, where the rider isn't in a sit up and beg position whilst on it. At least when it comes to wanting to go quicker.

I wonder what sort of speed a pro rider could maintain on a sit up and beg stepthrough frame, on 4" wheels?

 

[mjr]

but if you are on a bike a massive pack of bog rolls is a problem

It's not, because bog rolls are bulky but very light and already wrapped together. A single cam buckle strap will hold them in a basket or on top of a rack almost always. Two straps will usually hold a slightly damaged pack together for 10km if it's not too uneven.

as are special offers
today I saw a "buy 5 for £5" on Ravioli at ASDA - it was £1.98 a tin otherwise
which is fine in a car
but an extra 3 or 4 tins of a few thinsg ona bike can get to be too much

400g tins? If an extra 2kg breaks your rack, then that was cutting it rather close already. Take the trailer if it's that close. Or upgrade to 75kg capacity rack, which is common overseas but rare outside practical cycling shops in this confused country.

so you can actually save money by driving to The ASDA

which is not right!

As long as you ignore most of the costs of doing so, including fuel, wear and tear, driver time, need to get exercise otherwise, pollution, small risk of being involved in a crash, and so on.

Which is not right.

And if you're going to ignore some costs irrationally, why not ignore a few more and so decide that illegal e-bike delivery is cheaper because it's lazier?

 

[Dogtrousers]

I've just noticed something amusing about these fake compliance stickers on ebay.
They've spelt EAPC wrong.

 

[classic33]

I've just noticed something amusing about these fake compliance stickers on ebay.
They've spelt EAPC wrong.
View attachment 792611

They might work in mainland Europe, where the rules are for Pedal Assisted Electric Cycles. Acronym would still be wrong though, as you point out.

 

[Alex321]

As long as you ignore most of the costs of doing so, including fuel, wear and tear, driver time, need to get exercise otherwise, pollution, small risk of being involved in a crash, and so on.

Which is not right.

And if you're going to ignore some costs irrationally, why not ignore a few more and so decide that illegal e-bike delivery is cheaper because it's lazier?

How did you determine any of those costs were ignored?

Even just taking that one offer, that is £5 - it is unlikely that fuel & wear and tear on the car will amount to that much. Driver time will be less than cyclist time in most cases, not sure that "need to get exercise otherwise" is really a cost, and chance of being involved in a crash isn't much different, so it is only really the pollution being ignored.

 

[Alex321]

I've just noticed something amusing about these fake compliance stickers on ebay.
They've spelt EAPC wrong.
View attachment 792611

Not too surprising though. Even on here, people quite often write EPAC rather than the correct EAPC. Even Drago did it in this very thread - https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/increase-in-seizures-of-illegal-ebikes.299468/post-7529201

 

[Dogtrousers]

Not too surprising though. Even on here, people quite often write EPAC rather than the correct EAPC. Even Drago did it in this very thread - https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/increase-in-seizures-of-illegal-ebikes.299468/post-7529201

Oops

Something for the EPAC regulations experts on here to get their teeth into

 

[N0bodyOfTheGoat]

The idea that you need 2 tonnes of car to act as a shopping trolley is utter nonsense.

We've not had a car for ~14 years.

Fortunately, we have a Sainsburys ~0.5 miles away, which was no issue to do a decent sized shop with a shopping trolley. But then the trolley broke and we both ended up with long covid. Getting home delivery for ~£2 a week from Tesco for the last three years has been a godsend.

Plus we make good use of our Amazon Prime and have done for years, well before long covid, while delivery from other stores via couriers is so easy now compared to ~10+ years ago (my old postie duties went insane with parcels in the years preceeding covid starting).

But what we do miss having a car for is going to places, when either or both of us are off work. There's public transport, but it comes at a time and money cost, it took me ~8 hours door to door to get home from visiting family in Prestatyn last week costing ~£95 return... I used to drive to Wirral in ~4.5 hours for less than £30 return iirc.
Consequently, we rarely get out together unless it's going somewhere with family and we get a lift.

Unfortunately, if there's somewhere close we both want to get to, cycling together isn't an option. My better half is absolutely terrified on the local roads, I did it once around 2009 and it will never happen again without her getting prior professional training. I'm hoping to get her on a hire ebike again at Center Parcs because they are essentially vehicle free besides first/last days, but she's not done that since around 2018, I'm sure if we took ebikes to somewhere like the quiet lanes around Old WInchester Hill I'm riding again she would love it.

 

[Dogtrousers]

On the (OT) subject of shopping by car, the only time we use the car for shopping these days is for garden centre shopping (big bags of compost etc). Often we will drive out somewhere nice and combine a walk with a visit to the garden centre.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

It's not, because bog rolls are bulky but very light and already wrapped together. A single cam buckle strap will hold them in a basket or on top of a rack almost always. Two straps will usually hold a slightly damaged pack together for 10km if it's not too uneven.


400g tins? If an extra 2kg breaks your rack, then that was cutting it rather close already. Take the trailer if it's that close. Or upgrade to 75kg capacity rack, which is common overseas but rare outside practical cycling shops in this confused country.


As long as you ignore most of the costs of doing so, including fuel, wear and tear, driver time, need to get exercise otherwise, pollution, small risk of being involved in a crash, and so on.

Which is not right.

And if you're going to ignore some costs irrationally, why not ignore a few more and so decide that illegal e-bike delivery is cheaper because it's lazier?

When I was forced to shop by bike
it was not weight that was the main problem
I do have an ebike after all (sorry - EAPC - just been discussing that elsewhere!)

but the extra space taken up
especially after my panniers wore out
was a major problem

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

750W continuous rated power is inhuman. Not even elite cyclists put that out for prolonged periods. 20mph is a speed that most normal cyclists only achieve with gravity assistance and only very fit sporty types can maintain continuously on the road.

I agree

and yet I have seen countless post on Social Media complaining that they NEED to be able to do at least 20/25 mph
and that this is not an abnormal speed for a cyclist

then I watch a stage of the TdF or something and look at the speeds and note that these top professionals on damn near perfect bikes with ideal clothes and zero extra weight- only maintain that sort of speed on the long flat bits and exceed it only on mad run ins to the finish

and they also say that they NEED to be able to climb steep hills at 20 mph "for safety"

 

[mjr]

[...] and yet I have seen countless post on Social Media complaining that they NEED to be able to do at least 20/25 mph
and that this is not an abnormal speed for a cyclist

then I watch a stage of the TdF or something and look at the speeds and note that these top professionals on damn near perfect bikes with ideal clothes and zero extra weight- only maintain that sort of speed on the long flat bits and exceed it only on mad run ins to the finish

and they also say that they NEED to be able to climb steep hills at 20 mph "for safety"

I think you can thank the two ableist Johns, Forester and Franklin, for that gem. I've not got the exact quote to hand (but can find it on the bookshelf if someone wants) but they each wrote words to the effect that any decent cyclist worth living should be able to do 20mph which would allow them to navigate even the most difficult car-brained junctions safely.

And never mind that it would bring more energy to the crash if anyone - rider or driver - cocked it up, or that drivers are often surprised and fail to cope any time a bike is moving faster than a brisk jogging pace.

 

[mjr]

How did you determine any of those costs were ignored?

Where did you see them included?

Even just taking that one offer, that is £5

£4.90, so as not to overstate the benefit, eh?

- it is unlikely that fuel & wear and tear on the car will amount to that much. Driver time will be less than cyclist time in most cases, not sure that "need to get exercise otherwise" is really a cost, and chance of being involved in a crash isn't much different, so it is only really the pollution being ignored.

How much do you think fuel & wear and tear costs? Some time ago, the NHS was paying 70p/mile for the first few thousand miles and Unison was saying that didn't cover the true costs. So Asda needs to be within 3.5 miles else you're already losing out.

It's far from certain that driver time would be less than cyclist time, as countless "commuter challenge race" events have demonstrated. Cars are pretty slow in most towns. Even where it is, that's idle time, not activity, so it does indeed cost the time to exercise otherwise, and even if the chance of being involved in a crash isn't much different (and personally, I suspect people ding parked cars with their doors way more often than parked bikes get hit), the repair costs of those events are way higher, costing an average of £600 per car per year (source: RAC Report on Motoring survey 2024), which will take a lot of £4.90 savings to recoup.

But as Ming points out, shopping by bike means you're no longer tied to the drive-to-shop-drive-home doom spiral and can instead buy from cheaper small sellers as you travel around anyway, often getting fresher or otherwise better-quality items than the national big barns can stock. Like it's about £1 for a tiny tube of cumin, but you can buy six times that for £2 at the Asian supermarket. And don't get me started on the tasteless stale garlic that Morrisons now import from China, or the samphire from Israel. They both grow within 20 miles of here! (But of course the samphire season is shorter... but how much salty seaweed do you eat? 😉 )

Returning to the point, if people are willing to distort reality to claim lazier is cheaper when it isn't in so many ways, why are we surprised if people take the logical next step and claim these illegal e-bike deliveries are somehow cheaper still?