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User482

Guest
bonj said:
Ah, the old "I've already told you" argument. Getting desparate if we have to start wheeling that old one out.


So tell me what make, model and year is your bike, then tell me what make, model and year you deem to be the 'equivalent' aluminium bike. Then tell me HOW and on what basis you have come to the conclusion that it is the 'equivalent' bike.



Steel does weaken if you bend it back. Possibly not as much, but not that different an amount. What do you think paper clips are made of? Yep, steel. So why when you keep bending one back and forth, back and forth does it eventually break?

You've never toured and have never owned a decent steel frame bike. But yet you know all the answers. If you can't see that there is a fundamental difference in the properties of the two metals, and that leads to pros and cons for each, there is no point in continuing further. Looks like three years of university education was wasted on you.
 
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User482

Guest
User said:
I'll put my tuppenceworth in, having ridden on both steel and aluminium touring bikes.

Steel is stiffer than aluminium which means that the power transfer is better and the frame can better cope with being heavily laden. It is easier to fix if broken. Personally I find steel frames more comfortable

Aluminium is marginally lighter than steel, but only just. As it is not as tough as steel, the tubes have to be larger/thicker so end up weighing almost as much. It is more flexible than steel so power transfer is poorer - it is also unable to carry as much weight without thicker tubing.

Best of all is titanium. Tougher than steel, lighter than aluminium. It just soaks up the bumps on the road.

I think that's partly right. Steel is much stronger than alu and can be deformed (to a degree) without damage. Hence good steel bikes are built with very thin tubes which I would attribute to the "springy" ride that they give, so the stiffness or otherwise of a steel frame is largely down to the design of the tubes. Alu tubes are very thick as you say which I'm sure is why the ride feels duller, but that does give a very stiff frame. On the other hand, for applications such as suspension MTBs, the characteristics of alu are preferable.
 

simonali

Guru
An alu frame that has poor power transfer is merely a badly designed frame. Light steel frames are more comfortable due to the springy nature of the lightweight heat treated tubing, whereas alu frames are generally stiffer and more unforgiving.
 
U

User482

Guest
User said:
You might want to check you view of the metals, User482. I've always understood that steel frames are stiffer than aluminium and that is why they better at carrying loads and at power transference.


Steel does have a higher tensile strength than alu, but it has a higher modulus of elasticity. It is also much denser. This is why steel frame bikes are be built with much thinner tubes than alu, because it can be allowed to flex without damage, whilst still being strong enough for the job. Steel frames would be stiffer than alu on a like for like basis, but they would be ridiculously heavy. If you're after a bike purely for speed, alu is a better choice as it will be stiffer and lighter than steel.
 
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User482

Guest
User said:
You could try the Brick Lane area on a Sunday morning... ;)

Perhaps I should have added "not stolen" to my list of requirements. :angry:

Seriously though, I'd love a Ti bike, but as Mrs User482 has (repeatedly) pointed out, my Thorn is a very nice bike that does everything I need it to do. She's irritatingly rational when it comes to bike purchases. Then just to put the boot it, she pointed out that a Ti bike would probably have been made in a Chinese sweatshop, and did an environmentalist like me really want to contribute to that...
 

bonj2

Guest
What are car springs made from, physics graduate? You know -the ones that can last at least 15-20 years of constant bending.
steel, but they can last 15-20 years (or more) because they are actually quite long, just wound round in a spiral, so the actual bending per unit length is not very much.


User482 said:
Steel does have a higher tensile strength than alu, but it has a higher modulus of elasticity. It is also much denser. This is why steel frame bikes are be built with much thinner tubes than alu, because it can be allowed to flex without damage, whilst still being strong enough for the job. Steel frames would be stiffer than alu on a like for like basis, but they would be ridiculously heavy. If you're after a bike purely for speed, alu is a better choice as it will be stiffer and lighter than steel.

User482 said:
You've never toured and have never owned a decent steel frame bike. But yet you know all the answers. If you can't see that there is a fundamental difference in the properties of the two metals, and that leads to pros and cons for each, there is no point in continuing further. Looks like three years of university education was wasted on you.


simonali said:
An alu frame that has poor power transfer is merely a badly designed frame. Light steel frames are more comfortable due to the springy nature of the lightweight heat treated tubing, whereas alu frames are generally stiffer and more unforgiving.

User482 said:
I think that's partly right. Steel is much stronger than alu and can be deformed (to a degree) without damage. Hence good steel bikes are built with very thin tubes which I would attribute to the "springy" ride that they give, so the stiffness or otherwise of a steel frame is largely down to the design of the tubes. Alu tubes are very thick as you say which I'm sure is why the ride feels duller, but that does give a very stiff frame. On the other hand, for applications such as suspension MTBs, the characteristics of alu are preferable.

don't you get it User482, you tool - frames aren't MEANT to flex! it's not a "by design" thing - it's an unfortunate consequence of using a worse metal to make a bike with. They HAVE to be made with thinner tubes in order not to weigh the same as a small aircraft carrier, and SUFFER from flex as a consequence - they aren't made with thinner tubes IN ORDER to flex for greater comfort!
The fact that aluminium can be made with thicker tubing in order not to flex and still be lighter is the best of both worlds! And the fact that it doesn't flex (significantly) means it doesn't suffer fatigue. Yes, aluminium may have a higher coefficient of fatigure PER AMOUNT FLEXED, but given that it's generally made with thick enough tubes to be stiff enough NOT to flex, is generally why aluminium frames don't break. While steel frames have been snapping left right and centre since the first world war.
 
U

User482

Guest
don't you get it User482, you tool - frames aren't MEANT to flex!

Thank you for proving so comprehensively that you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. Go away, do some reading (and riding), and come back when you're slightly less stupid.
 

Chris James

Über Member
Location
Huddersfield
Bonj, you really are coming out with some total guff.

Both steel and aluminium alloys are suitable materials for frame construction. Different types of frames have different requirements. E.g.a track racing frame might be made to be extremely stiff for power transfer and an audax bike springier for long distance comfort.

As far as your comment about flexing – all materials flex. This is a function of their modulus of elasticity. Fatigue life is not directly due to flexing but due to cyclical stresses (which may come from flexing - bending but could equally come from tension / compression).

The feel of a bike is much more down to its geometry than the material it is made from. Large diameter tubing will be much stiffer than skinny tubes.

However, as User482 has already pointed out, there are distinct differences in the mechanical properties of steel – particularly modulus of elasticity, density, corrosion resistance and the fatigue limit.

Aluminium alloys have a third the density of steel alloys. So you might expect al frames to be a third the weight of steel frames. But this is not the case. Why? Because al is a much less strong material (lower modulus of elasticity) and so cannot withstand the same stresses as steel frames without failing. Also steel frames typically have very thin tube walls and al frames with this thickness tubing would dent easily.

So al frames are made with thicker walls and using oversized tubing (to limit the internal stresses in the frame). So al frames have more material in them than steel ones, hence them only being slightly lighter than good steel frames despite being made of a much lighter material.

Both al and steel frames corrode. Aluminium is actually a very reactive metal and corrodes very rapidly but it has the advantage that its oxide is very adherent so after the initial surface corrosion then rate of corrosion slows down to almost nothing. High alloys steels are less corrosion resistant for general use. However, aluminium oxide is not stable in the presence of salts and will suffer badly from localised corrosion. So it is important that you keep all bikes clean!

Finally, steel has a ‘fatigue limit’ whereas aluminium doesn’t. The springs eluded to before are operated below their fatigue limit stress and so can flex forever without breaking. The paperclips are operated above their fatigue limit stress and will fail rapidly. A properly designed steel frame will operate below its fatigue limit so will NEVER fail through fatigue. Aluminium frames will ALWAYS have the potential to fail through fatigue as they have no fatigue limit and every fatigue cycle they endure brings them closer to their final failure. However, if you design the al frame so that the stress it sees is kept to a minimum (through OS tubes, thick tubes) then it may be that you can extend the frame’s fatigue life such that it will be replaced due to fashion or crashing before it fails due to fatigue.

In summary, you can make a bike out of anything.

Steel frames will probably be slightly heavier than al frames, have thinner section tubes, probably thinner diameter tubes, be springier, corrode more easily unless looked after (eg painted and frame sealed) and will never fail due to fatigue.

Aluminium alloy frames will probably be slightly lighter than steel frames, they will be much stiffer as they need oversized tubes with thick walls for any sort of longevity, very corrosion resistant if looked after (washed regularly) and will eventually always fail due to fatigue if not replaced beforehand.

If you are interested in this sort of stuff there is quick a good chapter on it in the book Bicycling Science.
 
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User482

Guest
Chris, that's very informative - thanks for taking the time to post it.
 

bonj2

Guest
User said:
Sorry bonj - but it is you that is the tool. Bike frames are built with a certain amount of flex designed in. This is what helps absorb shocks.

I suggest you try knowing what you are talking about before you shoot your mouth off, otherwise you will just continue to prove to everyone that you're a self-opinionated twat!

User482 said:
Thank you for proving so comprehensively that you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. Go away, do some reading (and riding), and come back when you're slightly less stupid.

Chris James said:
Bonj, you really are coming out with some total guff.

Both steel and aluminium alloys are suitable materials for frame construction. Different types of frames have different requirements. E.g.a track racing frame might be made to be extremely stiff for power transfer and an audax bike springier for long distance comfort.

As far as your comment about flexing – all materials flex. This is a function of their modulus of elasticity. Fatigue life is not directly due to flexing but due to cyclical stresses (which may come from flexing - bending but could equally come from tension / compression).

The feel of a bike is much more down to its geometry than the material it is made from. Large diameter tubing will be much stiffer than skinny tubes.

However, as User482 has already pointed out, there are distinct differences in the mechanical properties of steel – particularly modulus of elasticity, density, corrosion resistance and the fatigue limit.

Aluminium alloys have a third the density of steel alloys. So you might expect al frames to be a third the weight of steel frames. But this is not the case. Why? Because al is a much less strong material (lower modulus of elasticity) and so cannot withstand the same stresses as steel frames without failing. Also steel frames typically have very thin tube walls and al frames with this thickness tubing would dent easily.

So al frames are made with thicker walls and using oversized tubing (to limit the internal stresses in the frame). So al frames have more material in them than steel ones, hence them only being slightly lighter than good steel frames despite being made of a much lighter material.

Both al and steel frames corrode. Aluminium is actually a very reactive metal and corrodes very rapidly but it has the advantage that its oxide is very adherent so after the initial surface corrosion then rate of corrosion slows down to almost nothing. High alloys steels are less corrosion resistant for general use. However, aluminium oxide is not stable in the presence of salts and will suffer badly from localised corrosion. So it is important that you keep all bikes clean!

Finally, steel has a ‘fatigue limit’ whereas aluminium doesn’t. The springs eluded to before are operated below their fatigue limit stress and so can flex forever without breaking. The paperclips are operated above their fatigue limit stress and will fail rapidly. A properly designed steel frame will operate below its fatigue limit so will NEVER fail through fatigue. Aluminium frames will ALWAYS have the potential to fail through fatigue as they have no fatigue limit and every fatigue cycle they endure brings them closer to their final failure. However, if you design the al frame so that the stress it sees is kept to a minimum (through OS tubes, thick tubes) then it may be that you can extend the frame’s fatigue life such that it will be replaced due to fashion or crashing before it fails due to fatigue.

In summary, you can make a bike out of anything.

Steel frames will probably be slightly heavier than al frames, have thinner section tubes, probably thinner diameter tubes, be springier, corrode more easily unless looked after (eg painted and frame sealed) and will never fail due to fatigue.

Aluminium alloy frames will probably be slightly lighter than steel frames, they will be much stiffer as they need oversized tubes with thick walls for any sort of longevity, very corrosion resistant if looked after (washed regularly) and will eventually always fail due to fatigue if not replaced beforehand.

If you are interested in this sort of stuff there is quick a good chapter on it in the book Bicycling Science.

Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
Read my lips: FRAME. FLEX. IS. NOT. BY. DESIGN.
Frame. Flex. Is. An. UNFORTUNATE. Consequence.
If you've all been sold the notion that it adds to comfort lock stock and barrel by the nostalgia brigade then i'm afraid it isn't my fault you're so gullible.
 

Brock

Senior Member
Location
Kent
bonj said:
Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
Read my lips: FRAME. FLEX. IS. NOT. BY. DESIGN.
Frame. Flex. Is. An. UNFORTUNATE. Consequence.
If you've all been sold the notion that it adds to comfort lock stock and barrel by the nostalgia brigade then i'm afraid it isn't my fault you're so gullible.

What's so 'unfortunate' about it?
 
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