Karen Dee and victim-blaming

[400bhp]

The hauliers strike was the golden opportunity to divest ourselves of road freight dependency. We blew it. Too many businesses and too many jobs are built on a needlessly wasteful use of road transport.

Capitalism says no.

 

[Moda]

Too many businesses and too many jobs are built on a needlessly wasteful use of road transport.

O.K, how would you change it? Apparently freight by rail is no longer an option as passenger travel takes priority hence Royal Mail dumped mail trains about 5 years ago.

Problem is people want to buy things build etc

 

[glenn forger]

Capitalism says no.

Yeah, kind of, the short-sighted business world seems to think that the recurring cost of outsourcing tasks to companies who will drive stuff around is better business than making a one-off investment in the infrastructure that will allow them to do things themselves. When oil prices jump again we'll see just how wasteful this is.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

HGV drivers are amongst the most regulated, sanctioned and trained drivers in the uk. I've had to go through medicals, months of training and have continued evaluations to be able to drive.

Cyclists buy a bike and go wherever they choose with no training whatsoever.

You've made this point before and I'll repeat my answer to it here:

The level of risk your class of vehicle represents to other road users means that you are subject to more controls on your use of the road.

The absence of a requirement to pass a test on a cycle is indicative of the level of risk a cyclist poses to others.​

GC

 

[Moda]

Yeah, kind of, the short-sighted business world seems to think that the recurring cost of outsourcing tasks to companies who will drive stuff around is better business than making a one-off investment in the infrastructure

What is this one off infrastructure investment? and will it deliver my cheese salad sandwich to the local Metro for tomorrow's lunch

 

[glenn forger]

Good point Moda. Cos, moving cheese sandwiches about can only possibly be done by vans and lorries.

 

[Moda]

Good point Moda. Cos, moving cheese sandwiches about can only possibly be done by vans and lorries.

OK I was being a bit tongue in cheek but think about how much is consumed by your average town centre. How are you going to supply that need?

 

[glenn forger]

If the road rules were properly enforced, businesses would soon innovate; discover new and legal means of moving things around — or that things don’t really need to be moved around at all.

 

[Moda]

If the road rules were properly enforced, businesses would soon innovate; discover new and legal means of moving things around — or that things don’t really need to be moved around at all.

Sorry but I don't think your basing your argument on any sort of reality that people in the real world are living in.

Are you suggesting we knock down a huge plot of central London to build a newspaper printing works and then employ 100's to do cycle deliveries? Where would all the raw materials come from and how?

 

[glenn forger]

That's what I said, yes.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Sorry but I don't think your basing your argument on any sort of reality that people in the real world are living in.

Are you suggesting we knock down a huge plot of central London to build a newspaper printing works and then employ 100's to do cycle deliveries? Where would all the raw materials come from and how?

The Evening Standard and Metro printing works are in Surrey Docks, rebranded Surrey Quays. There's another big print works at the mouth of the Millwall Outer Dock. The docks bit should give a clue as to where raw materials could come from. They don't but they could.

 

[glenn forger]

Vans and lorries are fannying about in London delivering water, that could come from a tap, laundry, that could be washed onsite, disposable catering equipment, that could be washed and re-used onsite. Construction lorries, especially tippers, often driven by absolute maniacs, could be obviated by moving to rail or river. We’re not making it sufficiently expensive to drive massive trucks around London and people are dying because of it.

 

[400bhp]

Yeah, kind of, the short-sighted business world seems to think that the recurring cost of outsourcing tasks to companies who will drive stuff around is better business than making a one-off investment in the infrastructure that will allow them to do things themselves. When oil prices jump again we'll see just how wasteful this is.

OK

You're not CEO potential are you.

 

[400bhp]

Vans and lorries are fannying about in London delivering water, that could come from a tap, laundry, that could be washed onsite, disposable catering equipment, that could be washed and re-used onsite. Construction lorries, especially tippers, often driven by absolute maniacs, could be obviated by moving to rail or river. We’re not making it sufficiently expensive to drive massive trucks around London and people are dying because of it.

There are, people dying, if you care enough of the living make a better world...uh hang on.

 

[Brandane]

HGV drivers are routinely criminal, law- breaking is rife within the industry, Google Operation Mermaid. HGV drivers routinely stick two fingers up to the law. That's why they kill and injure so many people.

What a load of bollix. I have been trying to keep out of these vehicular sensitive debates, but this post has forced my hand. I am a class 1 HGV (i.e. articulated lorries) licence holder, and have been for about 8 years now. I worked as a full time driver until about 2 years ago, and part time since then. To generalise and describe lorry drivers as you do is akin to describing all cyclists as robbing, drug dealing thugs, because cycles have been used for such activities in the past.

The company I worked for employed a wide range of people. Ex forces, retired prison officers, and several retired Police Officers (of which I am one). Yes there was the odd bad apple, but show me any occupation which doesn't have them - and I include the Police amongst that category.

HGV drivers do not "routinely stick 2 fingers up to the law". The industry is quite strictly regulated by VOSA, the Police, the DfT, DVLA, and the DSA.. Any driver who is stupid enough to flout the drivers hours regulations is to my mind, a total fool. He is risking a severe punishment and loss of livelihood. In any case, regulations allow for a legal duty period of 15 hours per day only - 10 hours of that can be actual driving (maximum twice per week, 9 hours other days). 15 hour shifts are more than enough for most human beings.

I would agree that city centres are no place for artics, but that is not the drivers fault. Any HGV driver I ever spoke to would happily give cities a wide berth. Traffic, stupid parking by cars/vans, pedestrians, and yes cyclists, all conspire to make it a very stressful environment to take an artic into. Lest we forget, most of these drivers are poorly paid. The going rate around here for driving an artic on day shift is about £8 per hour. Just wait until the Romanians arrive, and that rate will sink further, but that's a different subject.

Regarding your operation Mermaid, I checked out the results for Scotland on the Police Scotland site. This is what they had to say:

As a result of the operation 330 vehicles were stopped and inspected. 131 offences were detected and 46 vehicles were prohibited for mechanical defects.

Now as a retired Police Officer, I would have to say that the operation most likely targeted vehicles and companies which were known to be most likely to produce results and therefore make the figures look good. Yet they still only found 131 offences from 330 vehicles? I am sure any Traffic Cop worth his salt could find an offence on most vehicles on the road, and HGVs by their nature and size are more likely to have faults. I once got pulled up by VOSA at a check in Aberdeenshire because someone else had loaded the sealed trailer in London and a nail from a rickety pallet had holed the curtain and was sticking out about 1cm.. That was about 12' off the ground so no danger to any pedestrian; and that was ALL they found in 6 years of my driving. I have driven for a living in one form or another for about 30 years now, and am also a motorcyclist. My licence has never had a point on it, and I hope I am not tempting fate!

I hope this goes some way to clearing your somewhat clouded vision of the HGV industry Glenn.