London-centric: motorbikes in bus lanes

[tdr1nka]

So you're now saying the rider deliberately put himself in the way of the car?

I watched this vid over & over while you & Mr. P. have been slugging it out and I still, for the life of me, can't see why the motorcyclist moved left across the lane as he did. Even if he was decelerating he had plenty of room to slow in the lane to his right and should have seen a car coming up that fast on the inside.

As for removing legs etc. This is pure speculation when the clip shows us all that we will actually know. You've been asked a million times not to exaggerate Linf.

The rider could have been avoiding a falling safe that a coyote had pushed off a rocky outcrop, it doesn't change the fact that if you were to show this clip to the rider concerned, he might well agree that there were better measures he could have taken to have avoided this incident entirely.

 

[LLB]

So you're now saying the rider deliberately put himself in the way of the car?

I watched this vid over & over while you & Mr. P. have been slugging it out and I still, for the life of me, can't see why the motorcyclist moved left across the lane as he did. Even if he was decelerating he had plenty of room to slow in the lane to his right and should have seen a car coming up that fast on the inside.

As for removing legs etc. This is pure speculation when the clip shows us all that we will actually know. You've been asked a million times not to exaggerate Linf.

The rider could have been avoiding a falling safe that a coyote had pushed off a rocky outcrop, it doesn't change the fact that if you were to show this clip to the rider concerned, he might well agree that there were better measures he could have taken to have avoided this incident entirely.

He was in the right hand side of the inside lane, not in the left hand side of the outside lane, and considering the mess made of the motorcycle, it is not speculative to say that the biker would have received a very substantial leg injury had it come between the car and the bike.

 

[LLB]

We don't know what his original position was. The bike came into the picture travelling at an angle to the road. He certainly was not travelling in line with the road and so did not spend any time where you're saying he would have 'lost his leg', and we can't assume where his original position was.

For your benefit, I'll say this again.

If you watch the clip, you'll see that the next car along in the outside lane passed the incident a significant amount of time after the colliding car. This means that there was more space in the outside lane. The biker's choices were left, right or straight on. Right would have given more response time to both him and the following car.

He was in the inside lane and had slowed to 20mph due to the car in front of him slowing down to a similar speed to let the car out of the layby which had just been stopped by the police car.
He then decided to move over to the left hand side of the lane prior to pulling in to report some debris on the road. He didn't change lane at the point of impact. This was reported in the paper as his testimony.

The car passing on the outside lane did so with a more considerable amount of time as he was paying attention and had slowed down to account for the variable vehicle speeds of those in front, and the driver in the silver passat who caused the accident hadn't because their eyes weren't on the road!

 

[tdr1nka]

Funny? You have previously said he was making a dash to the hard shoulder to report an accident on the opposite carriageway.

That aside.

No one has implied that he was changing lanes at the point of impact, simply the result of his changing lane put him in the more dangerous position.

 

[LLB]

To use your words, and to follow what you claim to be a a common manoeuvre for motorcyclists on NSL roads, he 'dived across' the path of the following car. Not a manoeuvre that you'll find anywhere in the HC, or be advised to use in any driver/rider training. Anywhere. Ever.


Bingo!! If he'd have moved right, into what was clearly a bigger gap behind him, everyone would have had more room and time to respond. As it was, he 'dived across' the path of the car in the inside lane, despite it being only a couple feet behind him.

Erm no, he was already in the inside lane, he didn't have right of way into the outside lane as a car was also approaching in it.

 

[LLB]

Linford

A very simple question-

When you're cycling along in secondary, and there's a pothole in your path, what's the correct procedure?-

a) look behind you, check that you're safe to move then pull out, still within the same lane, around the obstacle, or

dive across the lane, avoiding the obstacle, oblivious to what is behind you. As you don't need to check anyway because you've got the right of way and the vehicle behind should not run into the back of you?

A obviously, but he was in the primary

 

[LLB]

I can't believe I missed this.

The bike was nowhere near primary linf. He was nowhere near primary when he came into the picture, and his angle suggests that he was coming from a position further away from primary.

Regardless of what you claim to be the biker position, straddling two lanes it not primary. It may be the position that a lot of riders choose on dual carriageways and motorways, but it's not primary position in terms of safety, unless it gives the option of the rider moving right or left to avoid conflict. Which you claim is not the case here. You seem to be digging a bigger hole for yourself.

Have you ever had any non-Sega training?

No, he wasn't straddling two lanes, he was riding correctly in the tyre tracks of the car in front. If you follow a car on a motorcycle, and there is an object in the middle of the road, the car will straddle it. If you are riding centrally in the tracks, you will run the object over before you have a chance to respond to the situation. The difference between a cycle and motorcycle in terms of road positioning is very different on NSL roads as you match the speed of the other vehicles.

If you had any real motorcycling experience, I wouldn't need to explain this point!

 

[tdr1nka]

The drivers side tyre tracks by the look of it.

 

[zimzum42]

handbags?

 

[LLB]

No he wasn't. Watch the clip again. Unless the tracking was terribly out on the bike resulting in it travelling diagonally, he arrived at the position as he came into view.

That fact deems the rest of your post irrelevant.

With all your self-proclaimed biking world experience, have you never observed riders living either side of the lane markings and filtering from side to side through the traffic? If you had any real motorcycling experience, I wouldn't need to explain this point!

He was riding in the inside lane, he wasn't filtering, and Motorcycles don't have tracking

 

[tdr1nka]

He means steering dampers.

 

[LLB]

You seem to have missed this simple question, and chosen instead to split hairs about things I've said that are irrelevant to the discussion.

Care to have a go at answering it?

And while you're at it, here's another-

Have you never seen bikes staying close to the line separation markings on NSL roads, even at speed, so that they can weave between lanes?

You mean filtering

 

[LLB]

Seeing as we have had this one going around in circles yet again, I have had an accident investigator friend look at the clip and offer his opinion on this (yes he is called to court regularly as an expert witness on such matters)

It was posted on a forum which I moderate on, and has also been debated. Anyway, this is what he said :-

Whether the bike is doing the legal minimum speed of 15 MPH on a dual carriageway/motorway or 70+ the car driver following behind has a statutory duty of care to ensure that firstly he (the car) is not too close too vehicles in front and can stop safely in the event of an unexpected occurrence.

In this case, the car driver should have anticipated the possibility of either a vehicle pulling into the layby or a vehicle emerging from the layby and should on that basis driven accordingly.

The same principle in law applies both in the magistrates court and the civil courts in that on any other road, if you got rear ended, the driver that does the rear ending is liable.

Viewing it again the video does give the impression he was moving in from the right hand lane, but the man says not.

Different complexion if he is not changing lanes.

It does give that impression, but I am more inclined to believe that he was adopting a dominant position towards the right side of the left hand lane to get the view past the stationary vehicle before pulling in, perfectly acceptable, perfectly legal. Onus still on the car driver.

The report also said that the police didn't take the matter any further. I can only assume they decided that both parties shared some blame for the accident.

In my area that would have been a guaranteed prosecution of the car river.

Someone mentioned lack of a lifesaver. Wouldn't have stopped the collision occurring, in fact it possibly did the rider a favour as he was still relaxed when he was hit which meant that he was able to absorb the impact on the road better, whereas had he seen the vehicle approaching, he my well have momentarily braced himself and this could have caused more damage to himself.

The bottom line is, if I was required to investigate this incident ( and I have dealt with many such crashes), then based on the evidence available, the car driver would have been found 100% liable.

The motorcyclist was entitled to slow down for the lay by, he is allowed to dominate his lane, and he is entitled to travel at such a reasonable safe speed as he deem appropriate to deal with that hazard regardless of the reason why he was stopping and given that a vehicle has just pulled out of the lay by before the bike even got to that part of the road, the car driver had sufficient warning to take appropriate action, such as slow down earlier or move to the outside lane!

[/quote]

 

[LLB]

You're really finding this blame thing hard aren't you?

That whole quote is about blame. I've never talked about blame in this incident, but avoidance and self preservation.

If you were hoping that you'd got some kind of victory because you've posted the opinion of someone who you say is an accident investiagtor, then I'm sorry that you're disappointed. Because I dont' disagree with what he said. And have never suggested that I would in any of my posts on this matter.

The only part that I would disagree with is his opinion about the lifesaver.

The fact, and I have to post them because you're reluctant to link to the clip again, is that he was just in front of the far right of the car at the beginning of the clip, and at an angle. He 'dived across' the path of the following car without apparently being aware of its position or speed. Had he made proper observations before changing position then he wouldn't have been travelling at that angle across the path of the car, and so his rigidity on impact is largely irrelevant.

Associated story & Youtube clip

What you will note is that the traffic in the outside lane is traveling substantially faster than that of the inside lane, and the silver car in the outside lane which is being obscured by the shogun is a few car lengths in front of it indicating that it was traveling much faster and was much closer to the point of impact than the shogun which directly follows the silver passat which caused the accident.

Anyway his name is Tony Carter if you are suspicious of his credentials, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend his services to anyone on here who has been involved in an accident if they believed they were not themselves at fault.

 

[LLB]

I haven't posted that to get into the blame argument, because I'm not interested in that. What I am interested in is road safety and maximising your control over your own safety. What he says contradicts your position.

He has already stated that lane position would not have prevented the accident, and I asserted that it would have been just as if not more dangerous to change lanes which is what you are advocating. He was doing 20mph in his own lane, and the traffic behind him in his own lane and that of the outside lane was traveling at a much faster pace giving him nowhere to go.