London riots

[ianrauk]

My beef with Cameron is his "hug a hoodie" baloney pre-election.

As well as his indifference when the riots began

And then his remarkably sudden return from Tuscany saying - all hoodies should receive the maximum power of the state upon them.

He's either one of the world's greatest chancers (I suspect) or he is stupid.

One suspects he has advisors who told him to hug hoodies, and now tell him they are beyond the pale?

Either way he comes across as someone who can't think for himself.

In other words..... a polititcian

 

[Angelfishsolo]

This is getting very tedious. Let me explain once more, and this is for the last time since you appear to be making no effort to actually read and understand what is being said to you now.

We were talking about the motivations of people involved. Not about what it feels like to those on the receiving end. Those things are very different. Of course, being caught up in rioting and looting if you are a victim is terrifying. But that is not what is going on in the mind of the rioter.

And yes, I have lived through a riot FWIW.

I do not believe for one second that excitement is a motivator in these cases. It is a mixture of inherent lawlessness and opportunism. If they wanted excitement as you suggest that could play chicken on a motorway or trainline. However the chances of being killed are so close to 100% they would not risk it.

 

[Arch]

I do not believe for one second that excitement is a motivator in these cases. It is a mixture of inherent lawlessness and opportunism. If they wanted excitement as you suggest that could play chicken on a motorway or trainline. However the chances of being killed are so close to 100% they would not risk it.

I think you underestimate the stupidity and sheeplikeness of the rioters. And many kids (and those who ought to know better) play chicken on the railways, and sometimes, motorways - I suspect they know they are more likely to be killed or caught on a busy motorway, so it's less prevalent. And then there's tombstoning. Every year kids are killed or crippled jumping off cliffs and piers into the sea - it's a mix of bravado, and peer pressure, and yes, excitement.

I don't think, by the way, that FM necessarily means kids said to themselves "I'm bored, I think I'll go out and loot a shop". I think he means kids gathered in groups, and when something kicked off, they got carried away in the excitement of it. It's not an excuse, because yes, they are all capable of saying no, and melting away back home, but it's often easier and more fun, to run along with your mates and do what they do. So yes, it's lawlessness and oppportunism too, but you can't rule out the thrill of the chase and all that as part of it.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

I think you underestimate the stupidity and sheeplikeness of the rioters. And many kids (and those who ought to know better) play chicken on the railways, and sometimes, motorways - I suspect they know they are more likely to be killed or caught on a busy motorway, so it's less prevalent. And then there's tombstoning. Every year kids are killed or crippled jumping off cliffs and piers into the sea - it's a mix of bravado, and peer pressure, and yes, excitement.

I don't think, by the way, that FM necessarily means kids said to themselves "I'm bored, I think I'll go out and loot a shop". I think he means kids gathered in groups, and when something kicked off, they got carried away in the excitement of it. It's not an excuse, because yes, they are all capable of saying no, and melting away back home, but it's often easier and more fun, to run along with your mates and do what they do. So yes, it's lawlessness and oppportunism too, but you can't rule out the thrill of the chase and all that as part of it.

I know that kids play chicken and the like, hence bringing it up. What you are describing sounds more like peer pressure than excitement to me. The adrenalin kicks in but that is biology. Not sure I would class that as excitement?

 

[Angelfishsolo]

I bet your orgasms are laugh-a-minute.

What's one of those? People with ED don't get them.

 

[Dan B]

I bet your orgasms are laugh-a-minute.

I wish my orgasms would last a minute

 

[Archie_tect]

I think you underestimate the stupidity and sheeplikeness of the rioters. And many kids (and those who ought to know better) play chicken on the railways, and sometimes, motorways - I suspect they know they are more likely to be killed or caught on a busy motorway, so it's less prevalent. And then there's tombstoning. Every year kids are killed or crippled jumping off cliffs and piers into the sea - it's a mix of bravado, and peer pressure, and yes, excitement.

I don't think, by the way, that FM necessarily means kids said to themselves "I'm bored, I think I'll go out and loot a shop". I think he means kids gathered in groups, and when something kicked off, they got carried away in the excitement of it. It's not an excuse, because yes, they are all capable of saying no, and melting away back home, but it's often easier and more fun, to run along with your mates and do what they do. So yes, it's lawlessness and oppportunism too, but you can't rule out the thrill of the chase and all that as part of it.

That's a sensible and thoughtful post Arch. I suppose the principal difference between people caught up in the lawlessness and opportunism is how they react to being caught: the sheer bravado and confident swagger of some of the people leaving the courts last night shows they have no fear of the process and for them it isn't a moral lesson learnt- they need help to enable them see the difference between right and wrong. For others the shame and guilt they'll be feeling means they wouldn't do it again. How you correct the behaviour of the first group [and the families [and their associates who weren't caught] is the big problem.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

That's a sensible and thoughtful post Arch. I suppose the principal difference between people caught up in the lawlessness and opportunism is how they react to being caught: the sheer bravado and confident swagger of some of the people leaving the courts last night shows they have no fear of the process and for them it isn't a moral lesson learnt- they need help to enable them see the difference between right and wrong. For others the shame and guilt they'll be feeling means they wouldn't do it again. How you correct the behaviour of the first group [and the families [and their associates who weren't caught] is the big problem.

To me this is where strict punishment comes in. It was heartening to hear that the cases were going to Crown Court but even so most prisons are like holiday camps for the repeat offender.

 

[Dan B]

Frank Bough

Are you suggesting lingerie or cocaine or both?

 

[Jasper the Surrea]

To me this is where strict punishment comes in. It was heartening to hear that the cases were going to Crown Court but even so most prisons are like holiday camps for the repeat offender.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-bang-em-up-cost?intcmp=239

 

[Arch]

That's a sensible and thoughtful post Arch. I suppose the principal difference between people caught up in the lawlessness and opportunism is how they react to being caught: the sheer bravado and confident swagger of some of the people leaving the courts last night shows they have no fear of the process and for them it isn't a moral lesson learnt- they need help to enable them see the difference between right and wrong. For others the shame and guilt they'll be feeling means they wouldn't do it again. How you correct the behaviour of the first group [and the families [and their associates who weren't caught] is the big problem.

Something I was thinking yesterday was that they (the authorities) should get all the people charged and put them in large halls or theatres, and play them filmed interviews with people who've lost homes or businesses, or in the case in Birmingham, sons. Or if people can bear it, have them there speaking in person. Really lay it on thick, and watch the defendants' reactions. Anyone visibly distressed, crying etc, you take them out, and start a process of rehab and community/positive punishment (making good damage, community service etc). Those who merely look a bit worried, or stressed, you give them a custodial sentence.

Anyone still swaggering and grinning, well, ideally I'd have them shot, but the state doesn't allow for it. So they get maximum penalty, whatever that can be. It probably doesn't address their issues, but it sorts the worst from the rest.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

http://www.guardian....cost?intcmp=239

If I had mentioned prisons that would be a valid point. I said strict punishment not holiday camps.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Something I was thinking yesterday was that they (the authorities) should get all the people charged and put them in large halls or theatres, and play them filmed interviews with people who've lost homes or businesses, or in the case in Birmingham, sons. Or if people can bear it, have them there speaking in person. Really lay it on thick, and watch the defendants' reactions. Anyone visibly distressed, crying etc, you take them out, and start a process of rehab and community/positive punishment (making good damage, community service etc). Those who merely look a bit worried, or stressed, you give them a custodial sentence.

Anyone still swaggering and grinning, well, ideally I'd have them shot, but the state doesn't allow for it. So they get maximum penalty, whatever that can be. It probably doesn't address their issues, but it sorts the worst from the rest.

Could we just perform psycho-surgery on them instead - Not sure what difference it would make to some though.

 

[Arch]

I know that kids play chicken and the like, hence bringing it up. What you are describing sounds more like peer pressure than excitement to me. The adrenalin kicks in but that is biology. Not sure I would class that as excitement?

But excitement is adrenalin, it's all biology! It's still no excuse, because we have established codes that trump biology for the good of the whole group, but excitement is as biological as any emotion.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

But excitement is adrenalin, it's all biology! It's still no excuse, because we have established codes that trump biology for the good of the whole group, but excitement is as biological as any emotion.

As I originally said I think it is more to do with peer pressure which has as much to do with fear as it does excitement. Adrenalin flows then as well unless I am very much mistaken.