Low Level races?

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T.M.H.N.E.T

Rainbows aren't just for world champions
Location
Northern Ireland
Mr TMH is a very fortunate person to have managed to acquire the skills necessary so quickly.
I am in no way implying that I'm an expert of course ;)

However, learning to ride properly is best done in a safer situation than just "diving in" (a quote) because there's a good chance of doing just that, only the dive will end up with a slide along a less forgiving surface than water.
FWIW I agree, even though my experience thus far is the polar opposite.

If anyone wants to damage themselves that's fine, just do it solo and don't involve other people, show them some respect by being humble enough to realise that learning is a graduated process.
Never really stops though,cycling or otherwise.

I've seen enough lower category races in the last few years to believe that there are a number of fit people who "dive in" without any idea of peloton protocol and generally how to ride skillfully, although they may have the physical ability to roll round, there is a lot more to racing than that.
Absolutely. Have seen it myself.
 

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
Well, not really fat old blokes. Comparatively so perhaps.
Qualified on both counts! :sad:
 

Herzog

Swinglish Mountain Goat
Having spent nearly a year group riding - and kept being told "you should be racing" by club members - I've entered this on 24th August as my first toe-dip into the water: https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/details/96648/Albarosa-Circuit-Races---York-

I've a Silver BC licence, so be very careful people ...


Great, you won't regret it. I think you've done it the right way round (for your body & bike...and others!) as there is no substitute for a period of learning how to ride in a group before racing.

Good luck!
 
As a Cat 4 finishing his first season, to any newcomers to this thread, listen to oldroadman and Robert and FFS get some experience in. Most circuits also offer training nights as a further stepping stone but learning group riding skills is essential, and I'm sorry to those who don't think it is, but you're wrong. No, racing is not the same as a club ride and of course the best way to become experienced at racing is to race but there are increasing anxieties at higher levels than Category 3/4 regarding those who have all the fitness credentials but don't know how to ride in a group. Is the best place to learn how to draft on the circuit during a race? I don't think so...and yet many of the E/1/2 riders have increasing worries regarding those coming from say a Tri background who may be very fit and very powerful but have never drafted another rider, let alone rode in a group, leading to unnecessary crashes...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/group-riding-skills-gap-making-uk-road-racing-dangerous-37356/&ei=4-swUqDuFIO47AbC8oC4BQ&usg=AFQjCNFghJpeb9O5IX3i9Ni8mQqFy2XFRw&sig2=xQQvnm6pJQrYCb8fbKMcOQ

Of my 12 starts this year, on all but 3 occasions were there NOT crashes (some from the other 9 however, were of a serious nature in terms of damage to person/bike).
 
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There have been crashes for as long as there have been races. In my opinion, you can go on all the training events you like, you can learn your 'drafting skills', your 'group riding skills' and all of that stuff. But there is nothing - absolutely nothing - that you can learn from those exercises which will prepare you for your first bunch race - and even that pre-supposes that you will have the fitness to stay in the bunch long enough to actually lean something. And even if you do stay with the bunch and learn all this stuff (which isn't actually that difficult, tbh, most of it is common sense) you might still crash. Bunch crashes are usually caused by momentary lapses of concentration, and if that happens, then your knowledge of riding etiquette (or lack of it) is largely irrelevant whichever way you look at it. It's the same reason why you still get crashes regularly in the pro peloton - and you would hope their group riding skills are already well-developed.

Put it another way - people with full driving licences still manage to crash into each other in cars, despite (you would hope) their overwhelming desire not to.

That's not to say that learning the skills is not helpful - it certainly won't do any harm - but knowing them won't guarantee you a safe race and it won't guarantee that an experienced rider won't take you out on the last corner. So, you might as well do what TMHNET said earlier, and just get on with it.
 
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There have been crashes for as long as there have been races. In my opinion, you can go on all the training events you like, you can learn your 'drafting skills', your 'group riding skills' and all of that stuff. But there is nothing - absolutely nothing - that you can learn from those exercises which will prepare you for your first bunch race - and even that pre-supposes that you will have the fitness to stay in the bunch long enough to actually lean something. And even if you do stay with the bunch and learn all this stuff (which isn't actually that difficult, tbh, most of it is common sense) you might still crash. Bunch crashes are usually caused by momentary lapses of concentration, and if that happens, then your knowledge of riding etiquette (or lack of it) is largely irrelevant whichever way you look at it. It's the same reason why you still get crashes regularly in the pro peloton - and you would hope their group riding skills are already well-developed.

Put it another way - people with full driving licences still manage to crash into each other in cars, despite (you would hope) their overwhelming desire not to.

That's not to say that learning the skills is not helpful - it certainly won't do any harm - but knowing them won't guarantee you a safe race and it won't guarantee that an experienced rider won't take you out on the last corner. So, you might as well do what TMHNET said earlier, and just get on with it.

So by the same token we should just hand out driving licenses to anyone who just wants to 'get on with it'?
 
So by the same token we should just hand out driving licenses to anyone who just wants to 'get on with it'?

No, you missed the point - we should hand out driving licences to anyone who meets the required DSA standards, same as we do now. The point I'm making is that training makes little or no difference to our ability to cause (or be involved in) accidents. 'Human error' is a very difficult thing to legislate against.
 

T.M.H.N.E.T

Rainbows aren't just for world champions
Location
Northern Ireland
No, you missed the point - we should hand out driving licences to anyone who meets the required DSA standards, same as we do now. The point I'm making is that training makes little or no difference to our ability to cause (or be involved in) accidents. 'Human error' is a very difficult thing to legislate against.
Indeed. Licence nor training would have prevented my concussion,whiplash and road last picked up last night

Nor would it have prevented my wrecked helmet :tongue:

ps: the least experienced of our trio who was on the front - didn't go down but didn't realise we'd crashed until my head hit the road.

Talk about licences,training and experience all you want, nothing more than blowing smoke.
 
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I think you're seeing this in very black and white terms which is not, IMO, the way to approach this...

Effectively what TMHNET is saying above is that because he crashed, no amount of training would have made a difference to anyone and that it's all a waste of time because of his own experience. Your own position Dusty Bin, also seems to be as absolute.

Whilst I agree that to crash is human error and that to avoid human error 100% is impossible, what isn't impossible is to gain some group riding experience beforehand...nothing more than that. And I cannot see how anyone would say the opposite? Would riding in a club beforehand actually make things worse or better? Most people know the answer is 'better.' Your argument rests solely on the premise that because accidents can't be avoided 100% it's pointless making any effort at all to try and reduce/prevent their occurrence which is plain ridiculous.

And I'm not missing the point with the driving license at all; again if human error can't be avoided or 'legislated against' then would you propose handing out driving licenses to anyone? The answer you gave is no and so there is a part of your argument that does include adherence to some standard, so why not the same for riding in a bike race? Surely you'd wish to give yourself the best chance of avoiding a crash?
 

T.M.H.N.E.T

Rainbows aren't just for world champions
Location
Northern Ireland
I think you're seeing this in very black and white terms which is not, IMO, the way to approach this...
What do you suggest? Some more making stuff up as you go and hoping it sticks?

Effectively what TMHNET is saying above is that because he crashed, no amount of training would have made a difference to anyone and that it's all a waste of time because of his own experience. Your own position Dusty Bin, also seems to be as absolute.
No I didn't say that.

Whilst I agree that to crash is human error and that to avoid human error 100% is impossible, what isn't impossible is to gain some group riding experience beforehand...nothing more than that. And I cannot see how anyone would say the opposite?
A crash is always human error?

Would riding in a club beforehand actually make things worse or better? Most people know the answer is 'better.' Your argument rests solely on the premise that because accidents can't be avoided 100% it's pointless making any effort at all to try and reduce/prevent their occurrence which is plain ridiculous.
You're doing a Cunobelin: stop reading things selectively and forging a weak argument from that.


And I'm not missing the point with the driving license at all; again if human error can't be avoided or 'legislated against' then would you propose handing out driving licenses to anyone? The answer you gave is no and so there is a part of your argument that does include adherence to some standard, so why not the same for riding in a bike race? Surely you'd wish to give yourself the best chance of avoiding a crash?
I hold many licence types for road vehicles or otherwise. My experience of those vehicles is irrelevant if the cause of an accident - was not me.

I also hold a race licence with Cycling Ireland - This did not prevent last nights crash. My experience could not have prevented last nights crash. Training could not have prevented last nights crash.

The guy I can over(whilst travelling arse over tit) Holds a CI race licence, is a Commisaire Driver for certain races - has years of experience and training. None of these could have prevented last nights crash.

The relatively inexperienced female on the front - ^ has a CI non-comp licence and her first paceline ride was last night. None of these contributed nor prevented the crash.

See what I'm saying? If you think a bit of plastic anyone can apply for(test required or otherwise) somehow has the magical ability to prevent accidents/crashes - or indeed if riding to a cafe every sunday with a club group will prevent anything - you need to take a step back or perhaps find another sport.
 
Whilst I agree that to crash is human error and that to avoid human error 100% is impossible, what isn't impossible is to gain some group riding experience beforehand...nothing more than that. And I cannot see how anyone would say the opposite?

I never said the opposite. Skills are good to have, particularly from a confidence point of view - just don't expect them to make much - if any - difference in a race.

Would riding in a club beforehand actually make things worse or better? Most people know the answer is 'better.' Your argument rests solely on the premise that because accidents can't be avoided 100% it's pointless making any effort at all to try and reduce/prevent their occurrence which is plain ridiculous.

I'm all for preventing accidents and minimising risk. What I don't accept is that teaching someone how to ride in a group on a club run will have any bearing on what they do in a race. It certainly doesn't seem to be working for the pros, who still crash almost routinely. And if it doesn't work for them, what chance have the rest of us got?

And I'm not missing the point with the driving license at all; again if human error can't be avoided or 'legislated against' then would you propose handing out driving licenses to anyone? The answer you gave is no and so there is a part of your argument that does include adherence to some standard, so why not the same for riding in a bike race? Surely you'd wish to give yourself the best chance of avoiding a crash?

DSA focuses on operating a car safely and operating it in traffic safely. However, put 25 cars on the starting grid at Silverstone (all with qualified MSA/FIA licence-holding drivers) and see what happens.
 
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VamP

Banned
Location
Cambs
I'm all for preventing accidents and minimising risk. What I don't accept is that teaching someone how to ride in a group on a club run will have any bearing on what they do in a race. It certainly doesn't seem to be working for the pros, who still crash almost routinely. And if it doesn't work for them, what chance have the rest of us got?

It might stop them being a random liability? You know; the obvious stuff...
 
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