Mate got hit by car, mrs not keen on me cycling anymore...

[steve292]

We don't need white lines. We don't need kerbs or bollards. What we need is for all road users to treat each other with respect, and for anyone who does not do so to be ruthlessly and permanently removed from behind the wheel.

This. All day long. That's all we need to do. No bullshit about hardship, just if you hit someone or drive at them like a tit, big fine license gone.

 

[steve292]

You got my vote. Dillon Aero M134 for me please.

Hell of a saddle bag needed for the ammo

 

[mjr]

This. All day long. That's all we need to do. No bullshit about hardship, just if you hit someone or drive at them like a tit, big fine license gone.

That's great but how can you do it? There is no chance of getting democratic politicians to make the change while the population is thought to be something like 67% motorist, 14% cyclist, with overlap that means not even all the cyclists will support such measures.

 

[battered]

That's great but how can you do it? There is no chance of getting democratic politicians to make the change while the population is thought to be something like 67% motorist, 14% cyclist, with overlap that means not even all the cyclists will support such measures.

You have to do it by education. There's no point in reintroducing crucifixion for all offenders without an education programme too. It has happened for speed limits, but this culture change has taken 20 years. Extra policing, fines and points, speed awareness revenue raising, sorry, reeducation, etc. In the 90s I used to travel on the motorway at an indicated 90, all day. I wasn't the fastest out there, just standard Lane 3 fodder. These days it's middle 70s, tops, and I'm not sitting there watching 3 series zip by like the Red Arrows any more. On one journey last year I had 2 cars pass me at significantly over the limit; I saw both of them pulled over by unmarked cars a few miles later. The roads are policed to death for speed, they just have still to do the same for poor driving. I had someone run into the back of my car a while ago, in a queue travelling at walking pace. The woman responsible got out of her car and said "I wasn't speeding". No, I know. Nobody was. You weren't paying attention though. The education has worked for speeding, it has still to happen for responsible driving.

 

[steve292]

That's great but how can you do it? There is no chance of getting democratic politicians to make the change while the population is thought to be something like 67% motorist, 14% cyclist, with overlap that means not even all the cyclists will support such measures.

I don't know is the short answer. Most of what we need is already in law, so perhaps start by enforcing the current laws properly and go from there? What would you do?

 

[mjr]

I don't know is the short answer. Most of what we need is already in law, so perhaps start by enforcing the current laws properly and go from there? What would you do?

We cannot enforce the current laws completely (which is what I assume you mean by "properly") because the scofflaws claiming to speak for the motorist majority will flame any decision-makers attempting to make that happen until they back down, or worse. Just look at what happens to pretty basic measures like camera enforcement of motor speed limits, red lights, yellow boxes or parking.

I would increase the cycling numbers by whatever effective means we can get through: if that means flagship cycleways, kerbed and post-protected spaces, as well as Active Neighbourhoods (former low-traffic neighbourhoods) and other more widely-accepted measures, so be it. And effective means not just "encouragement" aka whining at people to ride among feral motorists. Once we get to the points where our numbers are similar to motorists, plus most motorists know lots of people who cycle often, then we can more easily press elected politicians for fairer funding and policing and drown out the scofflaw motorists.

 

[mjr]

The roads are policed to death for speed, they just have still to do the same for poor driving.

Maybe that's the case where you are, or on motorways. I wouldn't know: Norfolk has no motorways (or at least not officially).

Speeding remains widespread here. The average speed on the 40mph outside my house is reportedly 38.5mph. That's average: it jams up at least twice a day and there are definitely people doing far far more than 40 off-peak. There is no sign of bad driving dying out here any time soon and I don't think education has worked.

We had a speed camera installed in the village earlier this year. I think it lasted less than two weeks before whining drivers succeeded in getting it removed. It hasn't returned yet. And even then, it was sited on a slightly-bent staggered crossroads rather than the gently-downhill straight where speeds are higher, so it would really only catch the dumbest of bad drivers. You probably shouldn't even be driving 35mph through that junction unless you're really really sure the turnings are clear.

The main saving grace is that since about 15 years ago, we have an almost-adequate kerbed cycleway all the way to town, connecting the various country lanes off the main road, so at least people walking and cycling don't have to be in amongst that shoot.

 

[battered]

I don't know is the short answer. Most of what we need is already in law, so perhaps start by enforcing the current laws properly and go from there? What would you do?

Enforcement is only part of the solution. Ask any policeman about this. What has to happen is that the activity has to be considered unacceptable behaviour, just as drink driving has become. In my youth and teens it was "everyone has a drink, don't take the mick, if you get caught you're unlucky". By my 20s the education had shifted the response to the point where Mick from work who had been done for drink driving wasn't unlucky, he was an idiot who deserved everything he got. What we have now is a total focus on speed and nothing on sharing the road. The "me" generation all have cars, they all think they have a right to use the road. They pay for it, after all. How many times do you have to hear "cyclists don't pay road tax" to understand what they mean? Cyclists don't count. They should be on the pavement, this isn't a cycle path mate. No, I know, it's a road...*mate*. This is an education issue, not enforcement. There is no current "share the road" education, how long is it since you saw any "Think Bike" type education on the TV? However drink driving has reduced since the 80s and certainly the 70s. Is this by enforcement? Only partly. The real success is in making it unacceptable, so that people who "I'm just going home, only had 3 or 4 pints, I'll take it steady and there's nobody about" are not greeted with a shrug but with "WTF do you think you're doing? You'd better stay away from me, and if I see you leaving the pub p***ed I'll be giving your number to the police".

 

[GoodLifeSpud]

Hi everyone

I’m relatively new to road cycling, been cycling for about 6 months and absolutely love it, regardless of the weather, as long as I have the right clothing for it.

Now recently I got my mate into cycling who hasn‘t cycled for over a year and he started to really enjoy riding with me. Last Sunday was only his 3rd ride with me and he tagged along with me from Solihull to Coventry (I had work that day). I couldn’t believe my eyes when I crossed the roundabout safely but looked back to see that the same driver who had given me way had not seen my mate behind me and ran over his back wheel. Anyways, there was me and another 2 cyclists that saw everything, and the taxi driver who ran him over also came out and admitted he didnt see the cyclist. My mate ended up with a fractured wrist and has had to take a break from driving and work for 4-6 weeks. He is going through the drivers insurance company etc.

I was absolutely shocked on Sunday and felt very upset. Didnt feel like cycling anymore. Also, when I got home I had to tell the Mrs everything as she would have found out anyway. She is now saying she doesnt want me to cycle anymore...

What would everyone’s advice be in this situation so that I can quickly and safely get back onto the road again... also, any advice I could give to my friend so that I can encourage him to cycle with me again once he‘s fully recovered?

Reading through this thread I wondered whether you've made it back out onto the roads? Did you manage to put your other half's mind at rest?

 

[Solocle]

You have to do it by education. There's no point in reintroducing crucifixion for all offenders without an education programme too. It has happened for speed limits, but this culture change has taken 20 years. Extra policing, fines and points, speed awareness revenue raising, sorry, reeducation, etc. In the 90s I used to travel on the motorway at an indicated 90, all day. I wasn't the fastest out there, just standard Lane 3 fodder. These days it's middle 70s, tops, and I'm not sitting there watching 3 series zip by like the Red Arrows any more. On one journey last year I had 2 cars pass me at significantly over the limit; I saw both of them pulled over by unmarked cars a few miles later. The roads are policed to death for speed, they just have still to do the same for poor driving. I had someone run into the back of my car a while ago, in a queue travelling at walking pace. The woman responsible got out of her car and said "I wasn't speeding". No, I know. Nobody was. You weren't paying attention though. The education has worked for speeding, it has still to happen for responsible driving.

To be honest I can't help but think that there's too much focus on speeding. It doesn't feel like doing 90 mph on an empty motorway should be anywhere near as bad as doing 50 mph in a 30 limit, let alone close passing a cyclist, yet all of the above get you 3 points if dealt with via fixed penalty. And the latter is the least likely to be prosecuted in the first place.

That's not to say that the level of penalty for speeding is wrong, it's one of the few road offences that seems reasonably well calibrated imo. It's also one of the easiest things to automate, although I'd quite like to see tailgating cameras deployed...

Oh, and I say that as somebody who did once hit 53 mph in a 30 limit... it was a steep hill.

 

[Drago]

If it goes wrong you'll find running into someone on a motorway at 90 hurts hust as much as it would on a courty road or resofential side street. Physics doesn't discriminate.

 

[Solocle]

If it goes wrong you'll find running into someone on a motorway at 90 hurts hust as much as it would on a courty road or resofential side street. Physics doesn't discriminate.

Well, of course the severity of a crash at 90 mph is higher than at 70 mph, but risk profile is a function of both severity and likelyhood. You could just as well argue for motorways to have a 50 mph speed limit, or 30 mph, or... yes, I know, reductio ad absurdum.

But talking of the absurd, and risk profiles, time trialling on a 70 mph dual carriageway.

The severity of a crash is very high - but at quiet times, the likelyhood of a collision is low. If you wanted zero risk, you'd never leave the house... except that most accidents happen in the home!

Now for the absurd part, the above is an all purpose road with the same speed limit as a motorway ffs! Yes, I know, the speed limit for HGVs is theoretically different by 10 mph, but we all know that Joe Trucker is sat pressed against the 52 mph limiter having a "pleasant" time with his laptop on both kinds of roads.

Frankly, I'd much rather be passed at 120 mph by someone who gives a full lane change, than at 70 mph "I wasn't speeding guv" trying to occupy the same bit of road as me. In fact, if driving standards were perfect, would not speed limits be completely unnecessary, as everyone would drive an appropriate speed for the conditions?

I'd rather see the morons kept off the road, than the "oh, morons keep crashing off this corner, so we'd better put in a 50 mph speed limit to slow them down". Which works nicely, until there's a cyclist around the bend. I'd personally prefer that they hit the tree on that previous bend...

 

[matticus]

The severity of a crash is very high - but at quiet times, the likelyhood of a collision is low. If you wanted zero risk, you'd never leave the house... except that most accidents happen in the home!

Yes.

And motorways (which I guess have the highest mean/median speeds of our network) are the safest roads we have.

I'd rather have strict enforcement on the slower, more hazard-strewn roads (which are also the ones with more vulnerable road users on them). Please Santa.

 

[matticus]

rather have strict enforcement on the slower, more hazard-strewn roads (which are also the ones with more vulnerable road users on them). Please Santa.

I swear this tweet appeared immediately after I posted that!


View: https://twitter.com/NPRoadSafety/status/1394192183528509446?s=20

 

[al78]

Once we get to the points where our numbers are similar to motorists ...

The sun will have exhausted its hydrogen fuel and will begin to expand into a red giant and start helium burning.