Motorsports Thread

[Reynard]

George reckons that theyre on the same contractual terms, other than the pay and perks I suspect! No designated No1 driver, equal access to facilites and testing, no team orders until such point in the season that one might habe a clear and insurmountable lead over the other, that sort of thing. Not that Lewis ever follows team orders anyway, but is always happy to benefit when they're called in has favour.

I'm looking forward to seeing George give Lewis a good snotting in equal gear, and I'm already running a book on the petulant social media whinging Lewis trots out by way of an excuse.


Verstappen refuses to become involved in those off-track psychological games, and Lewis doesn't like that.

Max is is equal in sheer ability, the car's are closer this year, and Lewis' favourite piece of gamesmanship does't work on Max, and it's showing in Lewis' demanour, which in turn is doubtless affecting his performance.

George is another one who refuses to indulge in these sort of games, either face to face or in the media, so Lewis will also struggle to respond the the challenge he is going to present next year, because on sheer driving abulity alone he doesn't have the edge on the pair of them.

Lewis could deal with Nico (most of the time) because, as you say, Nico would allow himself to get drawn into it to hismown detriment.

Contrast that with Alonso, who now seems to be in a happy place psychologically, and as a result he's become the wily old fox of F1, snatching points his car doesn't really deserve, and even managing to mix it with the top 3 teams on occasion. With Lewis' knowledge and experience thats the sort of driver he should be now, but I reckon he's too weak psychologically to be able to do so.

If it's not going completely his way Lewis flouders and is unable to cope with the pressure of expectation and failure. It is starting to become his own undoing.

I disagree with your assessment. Max has shown himself quite capable to throw the toys out of the pram. No one's ever told him "NO" throughout his career - well, since he started in karts aged 4 or so, and he gets petulant if things don't go his own way. Woe betide he ever ends up with a team mate that can really put the pressure on. He certainly didn't like it at Silverstone. Max dug his own hole there by not playing the long game. In that way, he's as much of an arsey git as Senna was.

And that's not just my assessment, but also the assessment of people "in the know" who I happen to know.

The Hamilton - Russell dynamic will be interesting next year. But George is a team player and has the skill to back it up in terms of results, unlike Bottas, who has been decidedly inconsistent. Besides, he's a smart kid and knows that he's got time on his side. All he needs to do is bang in the results and bide his time.

The difference between someone like Max and George is that George has been allowed to develop his skill, racecraft and mental maturity out of the limelight, whereas Max (still) has all the mental maturity of a two year old.

There is a lot to be said for the "old days" where a driver had to have a road licence to be able to go racing in cars as opposed to karts. They're just much more in the right headspace. The older drivers, like Hamilton, Raikkonen and Alonso are all products of the old system, and IMHO it really does show.

I do like watching the juniors race in F4 and Ginettas - they do put on a great show, but some kids progress far too quickly (often greased by the Bank of Dad) for their own good. FFS, Max was driving an F1 car when he was 16. Tell me, how can a 16 year old be mature enough to do that - and deal with all the other shitniz that comes with it? Then throw in the fact that there's no "time-in-grade" to allow drivers to develop, especially mentally. The old system of FF1600, FF2000 (or Vauxhall-Lotus), F3, F3000 really did have merit.

They've since changed the rules, and you must now be at least 18. If the blind old sticks at the FIA can figure that one out...

 

[Drago]

I disagree with your assessment. Max has shown himself quite capable to throw the toys out of the pram.

Except that this year he said he would not.

And he has not.

We need to judge this seasons play by this seasons behaviour, not what has happened in the past. This season Max said he wouldn't, and he hasn't. What happened in previous years is an irrelevance.

The one time Lewis tried to bait him this season Max said to the media he wasn't interested, and that he would do his talking on the track. Having shut Lewis down Max has stayed totally out of the arguing and one-upmanship, and has left that to Horner. This has left Lewis holding his d*** in the media, and it was clear that he did not like it one bit.

Todays smash was buttock clenching. Ive watched it in slo-mo any times now, and Max had legitimately - if perhaps over bravely - gone round the outside of Lewis, and his car was 'substantially past' Lewis' car, ie, more than half a car alongside. Lewis didn't leave any room, and then Kerblammo!

But in all fairness to Lewis, what was he supposed to do? Since the FIA don't allow teams to fit vertical take off technology, and Mercedes haven't yet developed technology that allows their cars to dematerialise, I really don't see what the feller could have done to give more room.

Be interesting to see what the marshals make of it, as they have all the camera angles and telemetry and are far more cognisant of the sporting rules than I am.

 

[Reynard]

Except that this year he said he would not.

And he has not.

We need to judge this seasons play by this seasons behaviour, not what has happened in the past. This season Max said he wouldn't, and he hasn't. What happened in previous years is an irrelevance.

The one time Lewis tried to bait him this season Max said to the media he wasn't interested, and that he would do his talking on the track. Having shut Lewis down Max has stayed totally out of the arguing and one-upmanship, and has left that to Horner. This has left Lewis holding his d*** in the media, and it was clear that he did not like it one bit.

Todays smash was buttock clenching. Ive watched it in slo-mo any times now, and Max had legitimately - if perhaps over bravely - gone round the outside of Lewis, and his car was 'substantially past' Lewis' car, ie, more than half a car alongside. Lewis didn't leave any room, and then Kerblammo!

But in all fairness to Lewis, what was he supposed to do? Since the FIA don't allow teams to fit vertical take off technology, and Mercedes haven't yet developed technology that allows their cars to dematerialise, I really don't see what the feller could have done to give more room.

Be interesting to see what the marshals make of it, as they have all the camera angles and telemetry and are far more cognisant of the sporting rules than I am.

I haven't seen the incident because I refuse to pay into Bernie's retirement fund. Radio 5 Live for me. So I can't comment. Yet. But this is exactly what I keep saying about Max's lack of racecraft. He'd rather crash than give way.

The very best - think Lauda & Prost knew when it was better to retreat and fight another day. It's why they were multiple world champions in an era that had more jeopardy than it has now.

Umm, and you are so very conveniently forgetting Max's rather snippy temper tantrum post Silverstone.

I get it that you don't like Hamilton. But Max is no angel either.

 

[Drago]

Max didn't need to give way - he was more than half a cars length alongside and the sporting rules make it the duty of the other driver to give space once the other driver has 50% of their car alongside. He was entitled to be there, and entitled to expect his opponent to give way, as per the sporting code.

Equally, I don't see what Lewis could have done to suddenly make the space. He could have seem max taking a wider, and hence faster line on the entry and expected that, but it wasn't a given that max would go for it, or would stay on the wide line.

So my personal call on that one is racing incident, but then I'm not privy to all the data the marshals have.

But a blinding result for Ricciardo,mwho went on to further wow the crowd by thanking them in Italian.

 

[classic33]

Driver of car Number 33 held responsible and given a three place grid penalty in the next race

 

[Drago]

Yep, I was calling racing incident but Max gets his bum spanked!

I'm not sure the reasoning as Max was more tham half a car alongside but, as aforementioned, the stewards have all sorts of data available to them they will doubtless know plenty that I don't. We should be thankful that lewis still has a head.

So thats one each now this season. I just hope they don't ruin someone elses championship with their shenanigans.

Interesting too that Norris is now only 7 points behind Bottas for 3rd in the championship.

 

[Drago]

A thought occured...

What if Red Bull decide to save what life is left in this engine and come back to it later in the season, and take a new engine for Russia?

It's almost inevitable that they're going to have to take an engine penalty at some point, so why not do it in Russia and totally negate the grid penalty punishment?

Ferrari have done similar in the past with controlled components to either negate penalties like this, or simply to put their car ona different side of the grid, so I wonder if Mr Halliwell will go for that option?

 

[figbat]

It was interest to note how circumspect the drivers and team principles were. No real blame game, a small dig from Toto around ‘tactical foul’ but all in all I think they all agreed on racing incident. I’m surprised the stewards have disagreed.

Other than that, great race with the top 6 or 7 often in the same view pretty much all race. Someone in the Red Bull pit crew is in for a ‘performance conversation’ though.

 

[classic33]

A button ease pushed, once the wheel was on. The button push replacing the automated system that was used before.

Why not a raised arm, with the front Jackman signalling clear to release instead?

 

[Drago]

It was interest to note how circumspect the drivers and team principles were. No real blame game, a small dig from Toto around ‘tactical foul’ but all in all I think they all agreed on racing incident. I’m surprised the stewards have disagreed.

Other than that, great race with the top 6 or 7 often in the same view pretty much all race. Someone in the Red Bull pit crew is in for a ‘performance conversation’ though.

And fair play to Mr Halliwell, as the first words publicly from his lips were, "Thank God Lewis is alright..."

 

[Tom B]

Just like all these penalties and stewards decisions it's too contrived.

How did we cope until the mid 00s when penalties pretty much didn't exist.


**As a McLaren fan I may have had a few beers

 

[Beebo]

Just seen the replay.
There was no chance of making an aggressive pass at that corner. He just stuck the car up the inside and expects Hamilton to move.

 

[Deleted member 1258]

Six of one half a dozen of the other, racing incident, they should have both been in the head masters study, given a rollicking and told to calm down, they're as bad as each other.

 

[Drago]

Interestly, the marshals lay the blame at Max's door. They say because it was a late move Lewis was under no obligation to make room.

However, the regulations state that if the car is "substantially alongside", ie, half a cars length minimum, then the other car must yield - there is no rule that states any article of the sporting code does not apply in a late maneuver, so I'm unsure what part of the sporting code the marshals relied upon for that one.

Still, that makes it one-all now for this season. I think it likely that Red Bull will take their engine penalty next race, and thus negate the sporting penalty, so much like the penalty Lewis earned at Silverstone it's liable to make little difference.

But this is liable to happen again and again, so I've had an idea. Lets have some kind of mediaevel combat tournament between max and Lewis. A spot of jousting and swordfighting will settle the matter man-O-man, and won't result in any red flags. Probably more exciting that watching Max or Lewis win by virtue of an undercut instead of actual racing.

 

[matticus]

However, the regulations state that if the car is "substantially alongside", ie, half a cars length minimum, then the other car must yield - there is no rule that states any article of the sporting code does not apply in a late maneuver, so I'm unsure what part of the sporting code the marshals relied upon for that one.

(I'd always read it as "more than half a car's length" but how is anyone going to to distinguish 49% from 51% ??? )
So yes, I think that's correct; but there is an unwritten rule, that if you dive in very late, it's a lot more likely that the other guy will ... er ... inadequately assess your position and velocity.

Or in other words, don't be surprised if he turns in on you, even if you think you're in the right!