Muppet

Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.

Cab

New Member
Location
Cambridge
Membrane said:
That is repeating some rule, but you provide no argumentation as to why you believe that to be true.

Forgive me, I was hoping to avoid turning this discussion into 'pros and cons of primary position'. If you'll permit, might we agree to differ on this point in this discussion; I would be happy to discuss that in a new thread if you want to start it.

As I said this was the case at the point where the conflict occured (on the bridge): no parked cars, no junctions, good road surface, cyclist to be overtaken still too far ahead.

The bridge is reason enough to maintain primary position there, considering the visibility and traffic I'd have thought.

I'm not defending the dangerous overtake by the motorist, I'm saying that when you take a primary position, some people will squeeze by you, in some cases to "teach the cyclist a lesson". Assuming the primary position should therefore be minimized to situations where there is a real danger to the cyclist if he were in the secondary position.

I really can't agree with you there. Yeah, there will be a small minority who will squeeze past too close, but if you adopt the secondary position more often than not nearly all motorists pass too close. I thought that was fairly well established?

That way of thinking is part of the "I'll teach them road manners" attitude that in practice only results in an increase in adverserial behaviour on the roads. There are a fair number of muppets on the road, they won't be "taught manners or good sense" by other road users, human nature just doesn't work like that.

You don't ride in primary specifically to teach the guy behind some manners; but again, this will soon turn into a 'primary vs. secondary' debate, which we should perhaps start in a seperate discussion.
 

Tynan

Veteran
Location
e4
imho, you pulled out to pass far far too early, I don't see that hill as a problem, more dangerous to be wide going over it than not surely?

and I didn't see his overtake as all that bad, bit close granted but I'd suggest you been holding his progress up for some time with little apparent justification

sorry, just my opinion (relative to London rush hour most likely), not looking for a row, just my opinion
 

Bob

New Member
This is very funny! Your head said - bike in front, must pass, must pass, look round, pull out... But your legs said - no way!
 
OP
OP
M

magnatom

Guest
Again just a quicky, but I would point out I take that road position all the time, regardless of there being another cyclist or not. Look at my other videos next to that hill, I have good reason to take the primary position!!
 

col

Legendary Member
palinurus said:
I doubt it too, although I did witness a driver recently honking one of those street sweeper things which had held him up for a couple hundred yards.


Hence the waste of time trying to teach them otherwise,let em passed if its safe,simple as that;)
 

BentMikey

Rider of Seolferwulf
Location
South London
Membrane said:
That way of thinking is part of the "I'll teach them road manners" attitude that in practice only results in an increase in adverserial behaviour on the roads. There are a fair number of muppets on the road, they won't be "taught manners or good sense" by other road users, human nature just doesn't work like that.

I've no clue where you get the idea that Magnatom is trying to teach someone a lesson here. It's nothing to do with that, but simply the road positioning to take for his best chance of safety.
 

BentMikey

Rider of Seolferwulf
Location
South London
I don't think it's about trying to hold anyone up either, or to teach them a lesson. It's about road positioning to give yourself the best chance of safety.

I often get thanked for making it easy for a driver to overtake me, but only when it's safe for me to do so, and I'll assume Magnatom does the same. This isn't an appropriate place to facilitate an overtake.
 
BentMikey said:
I don't think it's about trying to hold anyone up either, or to teach them a lesson. It's about road positioning to give yourself the best chance of safety.

I often get thanked for making it easy for a driver to overtake me, but only when it's safe for me to do so, and I'll assume Magnatom does the same. This isn't an appropriate place to facilitate an overtake.

Exactly. My safety comes first, then, when it is safe I am happy to assume a low secodnary and wave a driver through. Or like in the third video of mine in the video section, pause briefly at a good point and wave the following vehicle past.

Safety is and allways will be number one priority for me.
 
OP
OP
M

magnatom

Guest
Ok.

I have time to reply more fully. Here goes.

Steve Austin,

I am very sorry that you feel I am an embarrassment. I feel so ashamed, so I do....:rolleyes: Well ok I don't. So I provoked the driver to overtake. :rolleyes: There really isn't an answer to that. Maybe your right, maybe I turned round and goaded him, sticking my tongue out etc and shouted 'you can't overtake me'. Maybe the camera just didn't pick this up??

Look at these videos,





Here is one I haven't made public before, but happened a while ago



Look how close they pass me and the car opposite. What if that car coming the other way had been overtaking as well. That would have been nasty. That is why I decided to take a more agressive/defensive approach to this hill.

These illustrate why I take the primary position here. It had nothing to do with overtaking the cyclist (he chose to cycle in the gutter, I chose the primary position). His presence was incidental to my road positioning. I was not bothered about passing him, and in fact I held of passing until I got over the hill. It's dangerous to overtake on a blind hill, I want to keep as much swerve room on my left as possible, don't you agree?!

As for chasing the car. I did not. In fact as he passed me I did react and hold my hand in the air in a 'what was that' fashion, he was obviously watching me and at this point he braked as if he was going to stop (non-youtube version of video shows this better). He decided to continue on his way, which was the right decision.

I passed his car, deciding to leave it, but he started swearing at me. I don't like bullies so I decided to stop and find out what his problem was. It's all on video, why don't you take a look?

Oh and your right. I wasn't keeping up with the traffic. This is a 30mph road, but traffic routinely goes at 40mph. All the more reason to be a visible as possible approaching and passing over a blind hill.


Membrane,

The primary position is the right place to be here. I can assure you having cycled this road on many many occasions before. I have prevented a number of incidents on that bridge by taking the primary position. As a driver, you can't see beyond that hill. Cars sometimes overtake coming the other way. By being in the primary position I discourage overtaking on my side, reducing the risk of an accident. My only mistake was to not hold that position more aggressively after passing the bridge. That allowed the muppet to do a silly manouver and endanger me, the oncoming vehicle and his two passengers. Was that my fault?

Where and when it is safe, after that bridge, I generally take the secondary position. However, there are times depending on traffic that I keep my primary position for as long as required to keep myself safe. Am I wrong in doing that?
 

Membrane

New Member
magnatom said:
The primary position is the right place to be here. I can assure you having cycled this road on many many occasions before. I have prevented a number of incidents on that bridge by taking the primary position. As a driver, you can't see beyond that hill. Cars sometimes overtake coming the other way. By being in the primary position I discourage overtaking on my side, reducing the risk of an accident.

You are trying to play policeman. You are responsible for your own actions, not other people's behaviour. Others may make mistakes, it is for us to deal with any consequences of such mistakes, not try and play plod and pretend that you are blocking others for their own good.

The road at that point is plenty wide enough for a car to safely pass a cyclist who cycles to the left whilst maintaining a reasonable distance the curb (<= 70cm). That give us enough room to deal with the occasional driver who overtakes us too closely for it to be actually dangerous (not just annoying).

Regrettably there is a lot of "this is MY roadspace, and don't you dare encroach it" attitude on the roads amongst all road users, including cyclists. The driver thought that you were in his space, you thought that it was your space. The result was a conflict that could have been avoided if either of you would have had the good sense to abandon this notion of ownership of roadspace. But neither of your egos could handle that. You "stood your ground" and you now want to be congratulated for it, I'm not chiming in. I strongly believe that people should dispense of their ego before venturing onto the roads as ego is a big factor in the lack of tolerance that I see around me. The adverse effect of ego on behaviour is directly proportional to congestion, the more congested our roads get, the more detrimental the effect of people's ego on their behaviour.

The notion that cyclists shouldn't adopt a "submissive" attitude on the roads is another example of that. It is a sign of feeling inferior. Someone who is confident about their worth doesn't need to "hold their ground". The bigger person accepts the faults in others that he cannot change and will direct his actions towards a positive outcome.

My only mistake was to not hold that position more aggressively after passing the bridge. That allowed the muppet to do a silly manouver and endanger me, the oncoming vehicle and his two passengers. Was that my fault?

We are all responsible for our own behaviour. The driver was at fault for his reckless overtaking. You provoked his behaviour for no justifiable reason.
 
Membrane
<snip>
Others may make mistakes, it is for us to deal with any consequences of such mistakes,
</snip>

Hard to do when dead.

Membrane
play plod and pretend that you are blocking others for their own good.

Taking primary is not about playing policeman at all, and it is not for others good either! Taking primary is about managing risk and maximising your personal safety.

Is holding a car at a slightly slower speed for 30 seconds in the interest of your own safety really such a big deal?! I gave an example here of just what kind of effect Magnatom would have had on this driver (assuming their journey was a national average of 45mins long). The driver would have spent 1.19% of his journey travelling slightly slower.

Do you not think it pathetic that this driver could not stand to wait for a meagre 30 seconds before overtaking, and would rather endager Magnatom?

membrane
The road at that point is plenty wide enough for a car to safely pass a cyclist who cycles to the left whilst maintaining a reasonable distance the curb (<= 70cm).

Does this mean you only require space on your left! What happens if something caused you to suddenly need to move to the right? Or if you fell to the right? Whatever happened to cars passing cyclists as if they are other cars?
 

BentMikey

Rider of Seolferwulf
Location
South London
That post has pretty much proved to me your riding isn't to national standard quality, Membrane. OK, that's in my opinion based on Cyclecraft, but I think your riding must be quite lacking to have that sort of opinion.

I really don't get your comments in how Magnatom is "playing policeman". He's simply riding where he should be. His position doesn't prevent an overtake at all, it only deters an unsafe and dangerous one where there's no visibility. If Magnatom had been in secondary, the only result would have been a closer and earlier overtake, which would likely have been much more dangerous still. At least here he left himself some space to duck left and get out of the way if he needed it.
 
Top Bottom