New Indicator System

[glasgowcyclist]

I totally agree with you. However, most cyclist seem to do that with drivers. They fail to take on board the phycological changes on humans when they’re on high powered vehicles, The limited visibility and so on.

I think there's a high proportion of commuter cyclists (in the region of 80%) who are also drivers, so that doesn't sound right to me.

What are these psychological changes?

The limited visibility is the responsibility of the driver, who should take that into account when driving in areas busy with vulnerable road users.

I still don't see how trying to put indicators on a bicycle will improve matters for people cycling.

Have you read this whole thread, and seen the reasons that gimmicks like this are rejected by those who commute thousands of miles a year on bicycles?

 

[Elias Rojas]

I think there's a high proportion of commuter cyclists (in the region of 80%) who are also drivers, so that doesn't sound right to me.

What are these psychological changes?

The limited visibility is the responsibility of the driver, who should take that into account when driving in areas busy with vulnerable road users.

I still don't see how trying to put indicators on a bicycle will improve matters for people cycling.

Have you read this whole thread, and seen the reasons that gimmicks like this are rejected by those who commute thousands of miles a year on bicycles?

Commuter cyclist represent a tiny proportion of the overall driving population. And I agree, those who cycle and drive are more aware of cyclists when when they’re on the driving seat.
Indicators may not solve all cycling related problems. No one argued that. But It could ( potentially) enhance safety. Some safety is better than none at all.

 

[Drago]

By what mechanism would they enhance safety? As aforementioned, its been tried many times over the last few decades with a spectacular lack or success. If the benefits are so evident, why do they remain so disliked?

 

[Markymark]

Commuter cyclist represent a tiny proportion of the overall driving population. And I agree, those who cycle and drive are more aware of cyclists when when they’re on the driving seat.
Indicators may not solve all cycling related problems. No one argued that. But It could ( potentially) enhance safety. Some safety is better than none at all.

Seatbelts fir motorcyclists. Some safety is better than none at all

Can you please summarise what you’ve learnt from the many cyclists who say the problems of indicators outweigh the benefit? I ask because it appears you’ve either not bothered to read, don’t understand or completely ignored the main points.

 

[Elias Rojas]

By what mechanism would they enhance safety? As aforementioned, its been tried many times over the last few decades with a spectacular lack or success. If the benefits are so evident, why do they remain so disliked?

That’s a good point.
I’d put it down to design.

 

[Markymark]

That’s a good point.
I’d put it down to design.

Let m spell it out again. When I used to hand signal cars would try and overtake me or beat me into the turn. Drivers treat cyclists differently to motorcyclists. We are seen as a inhibitor to their speed.

When I stopped indicating and left the air if doubt the number of dangerous overtakes stopped to pretty much zero.

Please can you tell me your assessment that the benefit of such a system outweighs to dozens of times my safety was put ar serious risk?

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I personally don't cycle. I ride a scooter and I witnessed plenty of near misses and actual crushes on both sides, cyclists and motorcyclists.
I don't cycle because I find it to be hair raising (it takes guts to cycle in London), at least with a scooter you can keep up with traffic and not be as vulnerable as a cyclists.

Given the average speed of cars in London is about 8-11mph; it is not exactly hard to keep up is it? In fact I have to slow down somewhat if I want to give them a sporting chance.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I totally agree with you. However, most cyclist seem to do that with drivers. They fail to take on board the phycological changes on humans when they’re on high powered vehicles, The limited visibility and so on.

80% of cyclists also drive. Think we have a pretty good idea on visibility. We also understand the difference between an issue of giving a shoot or an issue of visibility.

 

[Bazzer]

Hi,
I thought about it a while back. I have some ideas but I'm not sure how it can be done from the engineering side.
I know signaling can be useful specially at night/ short winter days.

Those of us who have contributed to this thread probably cycle in total somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 miles per year, may be even more, in a variety of circumstances from rural settings, to town and city centres and from the north to the south of the country. Most, but not all drive. So there is a wide spread of experience.
So what are your ideas, so that they can be considered in the light of our experience? Other than the reference to Blaze, I haven't seen anything mentioned.

 

[Markymark]

So what are your ideas, so that they can be considered in the light of our experience? Other than the reference to Blaze, I haven't seen anything mentioned.

It appears to be someone who doesn't ride a bike, incorrectly thinks the challenges of motorcycling are the same as cycling inventing something that has been done and failed many times before creating something that in several posts by experienced riders (not just me) as actually adding to the danger we face. Not only that, in their research the have demonstrated they are completely ignoring these valid points making me wonder if they actually know how to research and understand the responses given at all.

But good luck to the contributor, I hope they spend many many months and lots of money trying this again despite all the points raised...this time it's bound to be a winner and an excellent use of their resources.

In honour of this, I have deiced not to bother asking motorcycling for their feedback on my seat-belt ideas as I am a driver so understand their needs. I will bring it to market as it;s bound to be a success, i just need to get the design right. Seeing as motorcycling is more dangerous than cycling, any safety I can give to them is better than none. Next week, as someone who sometimes walks to the shops I shall be designing safety equipment for mountaineers without bothering to listen to their feedback.

 

[The Crofted Crest]

I only ever use hand signals to warn other cyclists of my intentions. Cars can fark right off.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Commuter cyclist represent a tiny proportion of the overall driving population.

That much is obvious. But my point, in response to your assertion that, in relation to drivers of motor vehicles:

most cyclist [...] fail to take on board the phycological changes on humans when they’re on high powered vehicles, The limited visibility and so on.

was that you got that wrong.
Most cyclists are also drivers so know exactly what a driver's abilities, limitations and responsibilities are.

You're switching the relationship around now but that's fine because you'll have to agree that since cyclists are a 'tiny proportion of the overall driving population' it follows that the vast majority of drivers are not cyclists. Therefore they are much less likely to have the first clue about the needs of people who want to commute safely by bike.

It explains why things like indicators and brake lights are misapplied to bicycles.

A non-cycling driver looks at a bike and thinks: that doesn't have indicators like all cars do, nor brake lights like all cars do. Surely if I make the bike more like a car it'll be safer?
This car centric approach is completely wrong as cycle safety needs to be seen from the perspective of the rider. And it's been said every time this nutty idea comes up, it is pointless.

Indicators may not solve all cycling related problems.

What problem do you think they would solve? Have you researched, for example, RTC statistics to see how often lack of indicating was a contributing factor in KSIs?
I suspect your research goes no further than your own limited experience of near-misses you've witnessed and I'd be surprised if you had collated all of those and identified a lack of indicators as being a primary cause.

Some safety is better than none at all.

Wrong again.

As regards indicating a change of direction on a cycle, drivers are trained to react to - and expect to see - arm signals from cyclists. Simple, effective, free.

So here's your next problem:
Bikes and their riders can be fitted with all manner of lights; steady, pulsing, strobing, flashing, red, white, amber, worn on heads, arms, helmets, backpacks, saddlebags, panniers. seatposts. forks, crown, axles ..... Where are you going to fit a set of indicators amidst all that and how will you distinguish their function to make them clear and understandable to everyone?

 

[mjr]

I don't cycle because I find it to be hair raising (it takes guts to cycle in London), at least with a scooter you can keep up with traffic and not be as vulnerable as a cyclists.

Others have noted the low speed of London traffic that a bike can keep up with. Thanks to London's motorised congestion, I've sometimes ended up with a 3mph average speed (and picked a better route in future) and even I can keep up with that. I don't think it takes guts to cycle in London - it's more that it takes a few tries to find routes that motorists aren't clogging up with their dangerous sprints to get to the back of the next queue. I think it would take more guts to ride a scooter or motorbike because you couldn't use the cycle bypasses and would have to mix it with car and lorry drivers all the time.

As a scooterist, what do you think of "Biker and Bike"'s shameful use of a two-year-old part-opening-week video to suggest that the cycle superhighways are empty? https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/motorbikes-able-use-empty-cycle-superhighways/ Shouldn't they be focusing on making motorbikes less deadly before trying to mix them with more vulnerable road users?

 

[Drago]

You could hand craft them from gold, using Rolls Royce trained artisans, advertise them with photos of scantily clad women, and give them away with free money, and people still won't buy them.

 

[Serge]

Wow!

I actually feel quite sorry for the guy, that was a proper ass whipping!

You all made brilliant points though, kudos.