no blasted lights.

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I want a society where roads are designated for carrying vehicles up the to speedlimit. Anybody using those roads, (on the actual tarmac) whether they becyclists, drivers or peds should take enough precuation to make themselves safe by being seen. The alternative of traffic travellig at 10 mph to avoid hitting anyone unlit would cuase massive problems to he running of this country and I would say is a terrible idea of a utopian infrastructure

The change I would want to push for is strict adherence to the law as it stands and stiffer punsihment for those that break it.
 

Koga

Senior Member
2754723 said:
It is but that becomes a consideration of general rights and responsibilities on our roads. Drivers of large and dangerous vehicles bring a capability to kill or damage onto our roads. By and large pedestrians don't. A sensible arrangement would be that the drivers of those vehicles should be made responsible for that danger. What happens is the opposite with responsibility being transferred and calls for hi-viz for pedestrians and people driving with lights on so that pedestrians can see them and keep out of the way.
The minimum reason for lights on bikes (and cars and HGVs) surely is to be seen and therefore avoiding a possible accident with anybody. Hi-viz in my opinion is optional.
 

andrewpreston

Well-Known Member
2754723 said:
It is but that becomes a consideration of general rights and responsibilities on our roads. Drivers of large and dangerous vehicles bring a capability to kill or damage onto our roads. By and large pedestrians don't. A sensible arrangement would be that the drivers of those vehicles should be made responsible for that danger. What happens is the opposite with responsibility being transferred and calls for hi-viz for pedestrians and people driving with lights on so that pedestrians can see them and keep out of the way.
Two issues are being conflated here. I doubt anyone would argue for pedestrians having to carry lights and wear hi-viz,but this is about people riding bikes, I.e. being the vehicle traveling along the road,making themselves difficult to see for other people using the road.Those road users should be as responsible as we expect other road users to be.
 

MontyVeda

a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
The minimum reason for lights on bikes (and cars and HGVs) surely is to be seen and therefore avoiding a possible accident with anybody. Hi-viz in my opinion is optional.
the lights on cars and HGVs are designed to illuminate the road ahead, to enable them to see things that don't have their own source of illumination,,, they work very well. Even ninjas on bikes can be spotted using such a device.

Whilst I have lights and reflectors on my bike and person to increase my visibility ... i find it worrying to read posts along the lines of 'if i did knock them off it'd be my fault and that's wrong' ... at the end of the day, it's ones own responsibility not to ride/drive into things that are ahead of them.
 

Linford

Guest
2754782 said:
Two points. Firstly an insurer has already tried to get a pedestrian's damages reduced because they were not wearing hi-viz.

Secondly you are confusing failing to make oneself more visible with making onself harder to see.


So just to clarify, are you trying to justify people cycling on the roads without lights in poor conditions or at night ?
 

MontyVeda

a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
So just to clarify, are you trying to justify people cycling on the roads without lights in poor conditions or at night ?
I think Adrian is trying to point out that, in his first point... victim blaming is wrong, and in his second point, victim blaming is wrong.

I've sat on both sides of the fence in such discussions, but the one constant in these 'no lights / no hi-viz' rants is that these so-called 'ninjas' are clearly visible.
 

shouldbeinbed

Rollin' along
Location
Manchester way
Let he who is with orange pedal reflectors cast the 1st stone.
that'll be me then.

I get and fully agree with the arguments about the responsibility of the big nasty dominant predator to look out for the little vulnerable squidgys, but responsibility is not a one way street, it never has been it never will be. There is an element of personal responsibility in assisting, not usurping or abdicating them from, those with far grater killing or maiming capacity in their duty of care to the rest of us.

Lights after dark; for those vulnerables routinely in the road with the big nasty's - including pedestrians if they know that they'll be walking along unpavemented roads; are quite clearly IMO part of that personal responsibility, as they invariably show up from further away than the range of a dipped beam headlight, clearly identify that there is *something* out there to be aware of and so allow the bigger more dangerous element plenty of extra time to consider & differentiate what they are approaching and negotiate it in a mutually safer and more controlled manner.

Better than some last minute before they're *clearly* seen (@User13710 et al) 'oh s**t there's a bike/person there' moment and sharp overtaking manouvre; even when travelling within the legal speed limit (or worse make them make a value judgement of what to hit if the other carriageway is full of vehicle too) just to prove a point on who should take responsibility,

You could argue that in @Adrian world where the vehicle is totally responsible for your safety, that you don't need to indicate your intentions, listen for engine noise closing or look over your shoulder before turning particularly right as they bear responsibility for anticipating your every whim and possible manouvre.
I've yet to hear any cyclist argue that looking over your shoulder is victim blaming or part of the 'them' conspiracy to skew responsibility for safety disproportionately onto our shoulders.
 
I was travelling home on a back road last night which has a 60 limit and no street lamps and relys on car headlights to light the way. I came across a ninja cyclist who not only had no lights, he was dressed completely in black so was practically invisble. I only saw him because of the orange reflectors on the pedals but still felt he was completely irresponsible and was taking life into his own hands. In stark contrast I then came across a cyclist with "to be seen" lights and with Hi-Vis jacket on and I could see him much further away and gave him much more room as I was prepared to manoveur round him much earlier. Therefore I fully support a change in the law requiring people to take responsibility to be seen instead of relying on car/HGV drivers to do it for them.
 

Leodis

Veteran
Location
Moortown, Leeds
What is it with cyclists victim blaming because a cyclists wasnt head to toe dress like a HiViz clown? Lights yes fine we need them but most of the people I see dressed over the top with HiViz have naff lights on at night!!

Its the same old excuse "cyclist wasn't wearing the correct attire" what a joke and cyclists themselves are encouraging it, probs the same ones who ride 5mph and never indicate or shoulder check.
 

Leodis

Veteran
Location
Moortown, Leeds
Therefore I fully support a change in the law requiring people to take responsibility to be seen instead of relying on car/HGV drivers to do it for them

If you make cyclists wear HiViz you will slash cycling numbers by at least 60%
 

Leodis

Veteran
Location
Moortown, Leeds
I was travelling home on a back road last night which has a 60 limit and no street lamps and relys on car headlights to light the way. I came across a ninja cyclist who not only had no lights, he was dressed completely in black so was practically invisble. I only saw him because of the orange reflectors on the pedals but still felt he was completely irresponsible and was taking life into his own hands. In stark contrast I then came across a cyclist with "to be seen" lights and with Hi-Vis jacket on and I could see him much further away and gave him much more room as I was prepared to manoveur round him much earlier. Therefore I fully support a change in the law requiring people to take responsibility to be seen instead of relying on car/HGV drivers to do it for them.

Maybe if they reduced the limit to 30 you would have had time to see said cyclist better?
 

MontyVeda

a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
I hope you never find yourself in the position of having to hear a driver say, 'Sorry mate, I didn't see you.' This change in the law that you are so keen on will just give every driver that get-out clause, and whatever cyclists/pedestrians et al. do to make themselves perfectly visible, it will never be enough.

If a short-tempered troll like MontyVeda can get this one, I really don't see why you can't (and @MontyVeda, I take it all back now :smile:).

you missed out ill-controlled and small-minded :smile:
 
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