OP
OP
starhawk
Senior Member
- Location
- Bandhagen Sweden
What the heck is a BB?
Recumbent shoes
- Thread starter starhawk
- Start date
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OP
OP
starhawk
Senior Member
- Location
- Bandhagen Sweden
When you are sitting as low as you are in a tadpole a higher BB would be rather inconvenient, and you are not getting groundstrikes all the time, only in certain positions. However there is no reason to have the cleat under your toes, in fact its rather tuff for your calf muscle to have it there. So the correct fix is not a higher BB but to move the cleat back on your shoes. An easy fix which doesn't require a rebuilding of the trike and an discomfortable riding position
byegad
Legendary Member
- Location
- NE England
Mickle, think of heel strike as toe overlap on a conventional bike. Lots of people learn to handle it. Frankly even when my cleats were in their old upright position under the ball of my foot I only had heel strike on uneven ground. Even now, with the cleats are fully toward my instep as the shoes allow, I occasionally clip my heel when bumping down a kerb.
mickle
innit
- Location
- 53.933606, -1.076131
Yeah I know what it is, I've owned and ridden plenty of recumberant trikes and it's not something I ever remember having a problem with. I appreciate that's probably because the particular machines I've ridden just weren't prone to it - mainly Windcheetahs of assorted vintage.
mickle
innit
- Location
- 53.933606, -1.076131
A 25 or 50mm higher BB is neither here nor there in performance or convenience terms - but it would reduce the chances of your heel hitting the ground. Whatever the pro's and con's of moving the cleat back in the shoe - moving the cleat is an arse backwards way of dealing with this problem.
I've a very open mind to change - we wouldn't have got where we are today without people pushing the boundaries of what we know. But I'm on the side of pedal manufacturers, shoe manufacturers, 100% of professional riders and 100 years of accepted wisdom when it comes to cleat placement. Anyone who claims that moving the cleat backwards improves efficiency would need to show some pretty serious evidence to change my mind. Move the cleat if you want to stop banging your heel on the ground, just don't kid yourself that you are doing it for reasons of biomechanical efficiency.
OP
OP
starhawk
Senior Member
- Location
- Bandhagen Sweden
Hmmmm... Let see now, the first solution is to rebuild the bike to raise the BB and the second is a slight mod of the shoes, wonder how you got the second solution as the arse backward way of dealing with the problem, for me it is the other way around, why choose a complex way of dealing with the problem when there is an easy way?
Hmmmm... First you say that you have a very open mind to change, then you say that you are a diehard believer in the old things! That doesn't add up for me!
I'm not kidding myself that I are doing it for reasons of biomechanical efficiency, it is a welcome bonus that it doesn't put any unneccesary strain on the calf muscle as the topfot cleat position does
I don't know how many professional recumbent riders there have been over the last 100 years,but I suspect not many. A bit of googling for ' midfoot + cleat + cycle' might lead to further enquiry about the universal acceptance of conventional wisdom even for DF/safety/upright bikes. If we always followed conventional wisdom, there probably wouldn't be any recumbent bikes.
OTOH, there might not have been any cars, and Commuting would be full of indignant videos of inconsiderate horses.
As it's quite easy to modify an old pair of shoes, why not try it for yourself?
mickle
innit
- Location
- 53.933606, -1.076131
"Anyone who claims that moving the cleat backwards improves efficiency would need to show some pretty serious evidence to change my mind."
As for strain on the calf muscles... are you ok with standing and walking?
OP
OP
starhawk
Senior Member
- Location
- Bandhagen Sweden
From a resaerch report:
"A lot of people roll their eyes or shake their heads when the subject of Midfoot cleat position comes up. All I will say is that if you have tried it, your opinion is valid whether you enjoyed or disliked the experience. If you haven’t tried it, you don’t have an opinion. You are speculating."
and
"the further forward the cleats relative to foot in shoe, the harder the calves (gastrocs and soleus) have to also work to help stablilise ankle and foot. My working theory, (I call it this because it seems to hold up empirically) is that when the calves are loaded heavily enough for long enough, they are the first muscle group involved in the pedaling action to ‘give up’ which affects pedaling action in a variety of ways. One of them being the ’dead’ quads feeling familiar to many who have their cleats too far forward."
Which may explain why I was a little woobly on the feets for a while after a long ride
And regarding to the question "are you ok with standing and walking"
"midfoot is where a bit of commitment is needed in either buying custom shoes or in modifying existing ones, in toe overlap and other matters. It is also the cleat position that is far and away the best if the rider’s requirement is long, sustained performance at high or low intensity. It is no accident that a disproportionate number of successful RAAM riders use a midfoot cleat position. It is also the position I would advise as being the best for triathlon (a study confirming this will be made public soon) because the much lower loading on the calves leads to increased performance when running off the bike."
"A lot of people roll their eyes or shake their heads when the subject of Midfoot cleat position comes up. All I will say is that if you have tried it, your opinion is valid whether you enjoyed or disliked the experience. If you haven’t tried it, you don’t have an opinion. You are speculating."
and
"the further forward the cleats relative to foot in shoe, the harder the calves (gastrocs and soleus) have to also work to help stablilise ankle and foot. My working theory, (I call it this because it seems to hold up empirically) is that when the calves are loaded heavily enough for long enough, they are the first muscle group involved in the pedaling action to ‘give up’ which affects pedaling action in a variety of ways. One of them being the ’dead’ quads feeling familiar to many who have their cleats too far forward."
Which may explain why I was a little woobly on the feets for a while after a long ride
And regarding to the question "are you ok with standing and walking"
"midfoot is where a bit of commitment is needed in either buying custom shoes or in modifying existing ones, in toe overlap and other matters. It is also the cleat position that is far and away the best if the rider’s requirement is long, sustained performance at high or low intensity. It is no accident that a disproportionate number of successful RAAM riders use a midfoot cleat position. It is also the position I would advise as being the best for triathlon (a study confirming this will be made public soon) because the much lower loading on the calves leads to increased performance when running off the bike."
BlackPanther
Hyper-Fast Recumbent Riding Member.
- Location
- Doncaster.
Hmmmm. Can't say I've had any probs with my cleats position. I set them dead centre (for forward/back and left/right) when I first started using them on the hybrid and road bike, and haven't changed them now I'm riding the 'bent, and they're very comfortable. As mine is a Bacchetta high racer obviously there's no chance of my heels getting near the floor, but as the cleats only move a cm or 2 I can't see it making much difference, but maybe if you also fitted shorter cranks?
OP
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starhawk
Senior Member
- Location
- Bandhagen Sweden
Well the given distance is hardly that little, it is more in the region of 4 cm and I don't want to shorten the cranks, that will upset the gear picture and I like the cranks as they are. The question now is if I can find the Biomac shoes or if I have to modify some ordinary shoes
glasgowcyclist
Charming but somewhat feckless
- Location
- Scotland
I'm with you on this cleat position thing.
I've always believed that the optimum position for pedalling placed the ball of the foot over the pedal spindle. I was also told that putting the arch of the foot over the spindle was poor for efficiency and could damage your feet. Does all this change just because my feet are now out in front of me? Aren't the forces through the feet still the same?
(Newbie to recumbents with a SMGT)
OP
OP
starhawk
Senior Member
- Location
- Bandhagen Sweden
The forces are the same but the ball of the foot over the spindle being the best is proven wrong, it is best for certain ways of cycling, but there are two other posistions and the midfoot is best for sustained cycling at low or high intensity and that is the way I cycle so it is a bonus as I move the cleat for another reason
Have checked out reviews of the Biomac shoes, apparently thay are of not very good quality and are very expensive, one reviewer suggested buying ordinary racing shoes and modify them instead
Have checked out reviews of the Biomac shoes, apparently thay are of not very good quality and are very expensive, one reviewer suggested buying ordinary racing shoes and modify them instead
glasgowcyclist
Charming but somewhat feckless
- Location
- Scotland
I've had a quick google around and can see I have a lot of reading to do.
Here's just a couple of the links I'm studying
http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/Pedalling/LFC ideas/LFC Notes.htm
http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/04/power-to-the-pedal-cleat-position
I'll maybe experiment with cleat position on the 'bent.
Thanks for the info.
