Recumbent shoes

[starhawk]

Are there any recumbent shoes for sale anywhere? I mean shoes where you can attach the SPD nearer to the center of the sole? If not, anyone have a guide how to modify a shoe for this purpose?

 

[byegad]

Not that I'm aware of, but many shoes allow a wide range of location for the cleats. I use Specialised and Shimano shoes and Shimano sandals and they all allow me to locate the cleat far enough back for comfort.

You can take a Dremel to the slot and extend the hole even further. This seems very 'popular' in the USA as threads on BROL mention this every now and then.

 

[starhawk]

The shoes I have now have threaded holes so I have only two positionts to choose from. Extending the hole wouldn't work in that case. How are the arrangement done in Specialized and Shimano shoes?

 

[sunnyjim]

The internal metal sole plate on my shoes (specialized) doesn't go back far enough, so I cut away some of the rubber and fitted an aluminium plate to the outside of the sole. The cleats are screwed in to threaded holes tapped in the plate. I posted a pic some time ago -not sure if it's still around. This was a bit extreme, but I wanted the cleats almost back at the instep. The limit of how far back they coud be moved seems to be when there's a danger of the ankle bending the wrong way as the crank goes over the top.
Far back cleats & short cranks work well for me on the trike. It's more difficult to twist out of the cleat 'though (SPD). No bad thing on a trike, but a bit dodgy on a 2 wheeler, so I keep another pair of shoes with the cleats at the furthest back position. I'm thinking of loooking at other cleat types.

 

[mickle]

Eh? Why?

 

[starhawk]

Eh? Why?

Two reasons basically, the first is to avoid groundstrike, i.e. hitting the ground with your heel. The second is that some people claim that they get better milage and speed with the cleat further back

 

[sunnyjim]

Eh? Why?

Why not?

On a penny-farthing, using the ball of the foot to pedal lets you have a bigger diameter wheel for your leg length. (According to Sheldon)
On a safety /DF bicycle, allows standing on the pedals to sprint with similar forces and balance to walking. If planning to stay in the saddle this might not be important.

For a recumbent, these issues aren't relevant, making the question of best cleat position open to choice.

Mid foot is a nice compromise between minimising unneccessary strain on ankles & calves and keeping up the pressure throughout the circle. You can also push very hard from the heel with a near straight leg, so good for brief sprint pushing shoulders back against seat and lifting bum off a bit.

 

[mickle]

Two reasons basically, the first is to avoid groundstrike, i.e. hitting the ground with your heel. The second is that some people claim that they get better milage and speed with the cleat further back

I'd be interested to read these claims, I've never encountered this theory and it goes against everything I know about cleat position.

The correct fix for 'groundstrike' is a higher bb. I'd be mightily pished off with the manufacturer if I was clipping my heel on the ground. Even with my size 11s.

 

[mickle]

Why not?

On a penny-farthing, using the ball of the foot to pedal lets you have a bigger diameter wheel for your leg length. (According to Sheldon)
On a safety /DF bicycle, allows standing on the pedals to sprint with similar forces and balance to walking. If planning to stay in the saddle this might not be important.

For a recumbent, these issues aren't relevant, making the question of best cleat position open to choice.

Mid foot is a nice compromise between minimising unneccessary strain on ankles & calves (?) and keeping up the pressure throughout the circle. You can also push very hard* from the heel with a near straight leg, so good for brief sprint pushing shoulders back against seat and lifting bum off a bit.

You appear to have outlined the argument against very effectively. Pushing hard against the seat is bad practice - for the components of your bike, for your knees and for your cardiovascular system.

The benefits of high RPM over brute force are the same whatever your seat angle.

What's a DF bicycle?

 

[sunnyjim]

You appear to have outlined the argument against very effectively. Pushing hard against the seat is bad practice - for the components of your bike, for your knees and for your cardiovascular system.

The benefits of high RPM over brute force are the same whatever your seat angle.

What's a DF bicycle?

Agree high rpm is always better than grunt, and that's what I do. That doesn't dictate a ball-of-foot position over any other, so the suggestion of reducing unneccessary strain may be open to discussion, but not instant dismissal. I had some problems with weak/swolen ankles some years ago, and although I could hardly walk even with a stick, (tri)cycling was no problem apart from unclipping, which sometimes needed manual assistance. Not proof but at least one datapoint. Others repot relief from various foot pains.

Heel strike is perhaps a peripheral issue, although I used to ground occassionally on my QNT on speed humps before moving to 145mm cranks and a more cleat back position.

Sometimes a couple of big hard shoves work wonders- like getting up a hump. Not good for the knees, as you say but quite fun. Standing on the pedals on a Diamond Frame bike isn't most efficient either, but OK for short bursts.

I believe it was bad practice not to use 'ankling' for many years, now discredited. Dogmatic rules always need questioning.

 

[mickle]

DF

I found the whole 'short cranks' discussion very interesting, flying in the face, as it does, of accepted wisdom. Initially proposed as a way of reducing the frontal area of a body shell, they expected losses but found none. The crank is just a lever, and the reduction of leverage (of a shorter crank) can be compensated for in the gearing. There has to be a range of crank lengths which are feasible, because where do you stop? 50mm? 275mm? And within that range it must be possible to settle on an optimal length for a given discipline (road/off-road/recumbent..)for a given leg length.

But I'm finding it hard to get my head around this cleat position malarky.

Happy to be proved wrong mind (he said through gritted teeth...) ;-)

 

[sunnyjim]

There doesn't seem to be any single factor for cleat position. I did it primarily because of a physical problem, but am also quite happy with the conventional arrangement. As Starhawk mentioned some think it makes them go faster, and others apparently get relief from their 'hot foot', so maybe in truth it isn't very important for a recumbent at least, just personal preference.

I hadn't thought about crank length at all (apart from being vaugely aware that some upright riders argued for longer ones) until getting a recumbent. It sort of makes sense that there must be an optimum for a given leg length, and that it must be somewhere between > zero and say 200-300mm. I made up a pair of crude crank shorteners from mild steel and gradually reduced the length on the trike by 5mm increments over a period of about 3 weeks. I got as far as 145mm, which was the limit of the home made shorteners and still hadn't felt any significant difference, so decided that less leg bend could only be a good thing so finally drilled & tapped new holes for the pedals at that. I left the cranks full length so there is always the option to go back for comparison.
When I got the Raptobike, where tyre strike is also an issue, going back to 170mm cranks felt strange (apart from all the other strange feelings a raptobike provides), so cut the cranks down in one go to 135mm with no apparent ill effects. TBH I hadn't thought enough about uncleating torque when I did that. I haven't really done enough miles on it to draw useful conclusions.
Obviously the maximum available drive torque is reduced, so generally needs a lower gear uphill or for accelleration if near the limit of force the rider can provide, although generally the same gear as full length cranks on flat/downhill when only desired cadence matters. It might be argued that a less bent -but-not-completely-straight leg can produce more force (and potential damage of course), so partially compensates for the lower torque.

 

[byegad]

I run my cleats right back in all my shoes. I do this to avoid numb toes in winter and hot foot in summer. I make no claims for efficiency or anything else, it's for comfort.

 

[starhawk]

Well my reason is to avoid groundstrikes, if it increases my milaga and/or speed it's a welcome bonus but nothing I strive for

 

[mickle]

Well my reason is to avoid groundstrikes, if it increases my milaga and/or speed it's a welcome bonus but nothing I strive for

How high is your bb?