Reducing front wheel weight

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Justinslow

Lovely jubbly
Location
Suffolk
Thanks for the help Justinslow, that's all I really wanted to know!

Not sure why most other messages are fairly aggressive/ confrontational. Didn't realise people new to all this couldn't really ask questions without getting their head chewed off.
I'm sure @Shaun would like everyone to be able to ask any questions they like however daft they may or may not appear to others, I don't know why some posters give the kind of responses they do, it's always been the same I'm afraid, but rest assured most are here to help :okay:
 

Tim Hall

Guest
Location
Crawley
What I find interesting is the bit about the rear wheel having unconventional sizing. Can you elaborate on that a bit?
 

derrick

The Glue that binds us together.
I had a Bianchi nirone a few years back, i upgraded the wheels to Mavic ksyrium elites, The bike completely changed it felt a lot more positive on the roads, steering was more positive, If it was quicker or not i don't know, it certainly felt faster, and it looked better, What's not to like.:okay:
 

Justinslow

Lovely jubbly
Location
Suffolk
I had a Bianchi nirone a few years back, i upgraded the wheels to Mavic ksyrium elites, The bike completely changed it felt a lot more positive on the roads, steering was more positive, If it was quicker or not i don't know, it certainly felt faster, and it looked better, What's not to like.:okay:
Absolutely
 
Location
Loch side.
Thanks for the help Justinslow, that's all I really wanted to know!

Not sure why most other messages are fairly aggressive/ confrontational. Didn't realise people new to all this couldn't really ask questions without getting their head chewed off.
Any aggression is purely inferred, not implied. You asked a question, I gave you a simple, honest, straightforward answer. You may not like it, but it remains the same, whether I put fancy embellishments on it or not.
There's a bit of history to this debate and perhaps you could have spent a little time researching it here because it is a frequently-asked question ...... MOD EDIT...
We've done the physics here, I've quantified the differences, we've had an intelligent and robust debate about it, yet some people will always walk away saying that they can feel the difference even if physics shows otherwise. With new wheels their bikes steer more positively, is more responsive and attracts more members of the opposite sex. Yet, when you ask them to quantify such vague concepts they will bluster and say that if the rest of the world can't feel it it doesn't mean they can't, etc etc.
Joffey's answer was perhaps a bit kinder than mine but read between the lines - it will make no difference.

Since you are new here I'll repeat the truth about wheels for you.

1) Weight saved on wheels is no different from weight saved anywhere else on the bike.
2) No matter where on the wheel the weight is saved, it makes the same as weight saved anywhere else on the bike.
3) Aero wheels will save you a couple of seconds over a 40k time trial if, and here's the crux - if you can cycle fast enough so that aero drag is significant. Since you are a self-confessed newbie, you don't qualify for those benefits.
4) Some people will say that the pro's use fancy wheels and therefore it is good for you. Pros ride fast, have free wheels at their disposal and get paid to emblaze sponsor names on wheels designed primarily to look like rolling billboards. This doesn't make them beneficial to you unless someone pays you to make their name go round and round.
5) Heavy wheels take longer to spin up but the energy is not wasted. When you coast, they return the favour. There is no energy lost.
6) A bit of weight saving will make it every so slightly easier to climb but you have to put it in perspective. 500g off a 90kg package is insignificant. Further, us humans can't detect small speed differences. If the wheel (or the 2l Coca Cola bottle on your frame) is slightly heavier, then you will simply cycle a teeny bit faster. You won't feel better or worse for it.
7) Aero wheels are, ironically, heavy by definition.
8) Aero wheels are not durable like wheels with alu rims and 32 spokes.
9) People who spend lots of money on wheels will always, yes always, post-rationalize it. None of them retain perspective after spending so much money.
10) Your thoughts on front wheels vs rear wheels have no scientific reason to be valid. Weight is weight, whether you tow it with a trailer or carry it in your pocket or pack it all into a unicycle's only wheel.
11) If you want to see the maths on this, search for F=MA on this forum, there's a long debate there somewhere with all the irrefutable sums and lots of lapdog who claim they're exempt from the laws of nature.

Go for a ride, drink a beer and find new places for your bike to take you to.
 
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Profpointy

Legendary Member
Any aggression is purely inferred, not implied. You asked a question, I gave you a simple, honest, straightforward answer. You may not like it, but it remains the same, whether I put fancy embellishments on it or not.
There's a bit of history to this debate and perhaps you could have spent a little time researching it here because it is a frequently-asked question. ...
We've done the physics here, I've quantified the differences, we've had an intelligent and robust debate about it, yet some people will always walk away saying that they can feel the difference even if physics shows otherwise. With new wheels their bikes steer more positively, is more responsive and attracts more members of the opposite sex. Yet, when you ask them to quantify such vague concepts they will bluster and say that if the rest of the world can't feel it it doesn't mean they can't, etc etc.
Joffey's answer was perhaps a bit kinder than mine but read between the lines - it will make no difference.

Since you are new here I'll repeat the truth about wheels for you.

1) Weight saved on wheels is no different from weight saved anywhere else on the bike.
2) No matter where on the wheel the weight is saved, it makes the same as weight saved anywhere else on the bike.
3) Aero wheels will save you a couple of seconds over a 40k time trial if, and here's the crux - if you can cycle fast enough so that aero drag is significant. Since you are a self-confessed newbie, you don't qualify for those benefits.
4) Some people will say that the pro's use fancy wheels and therefore it is good for you. Pros ride fast, have free wheels at their disposal and get paid to emblaze sponsor names on wheels designed primarily to look like rolling billboards. This doesn't make them beneficial to you unless someone pays you to make their name go round and round.
5) Heavy wheels take longer to spin up but the energy is not wasted. When you coast, they return the favour. There is no energy lost.
6) A bit of weight saving will make it every so slightly easier to climb but you have to put it in perspective. 500g off a 90kg package is insignificant. Further, us humans can't detect small speed differences. If the wheel (or the 2l Coca Cola bottle on your frame) is slightly heavier, then you will simply cycle a teeny bit faster. You won't feel better or worse for it.
7) Aero wheels are ironically, heavy by definition.
8) Aero wheels are not durable like wheels with alu rims and 32 spokes.
9) People who spend lots of money on wheels will always, yes always, post-rationalize it. None of them retain perspective after spending so much money.
10) Your thoughts on front wheels vs rear wheels have no scientific reason to be valid. Weight is weight, whether you tow it with a trailer or carry it in your pocket or pack it all into a unicycle's only wheel.
11) If you want to see the maths on this, search for F=MA on this forum, there's a long debate there somewhere with all the irrefutable sums and lots of lapdog who claim they're exempt from the laws of nature.

Go for a ride, drink a beer and find new places for your bike to take you to.

some of that is right, but the weight of bike same as weight on wheel is simply wrong physics, at least for acceleration. The energy to accelerate an object to a given velocity is 1/2mv^2 as you no doubt know. However with a wheel, there is the additional energy in the spin of said wheel - how much depends on whether it's mostly rim or hub weight. I'd have to look up the sums on angular momentum to work out how much.

I'd also contend that I can certainly feel a kilo in my panniers - coming home from work with a book or two or my PC is harder work. Sure it's only 1% but uphill you notice - just as I notice carrying an ice axe on my rucksack in winter hillwalking
 
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Justinslow

Lovely jubbly
Location
Suffolk
:eek:

I think you're imagining stuff but it is quite funny, I'll give you that!

There, it wasn't so hard to give "some" facts (and a lot of other stuff) was it?

Moral of this story @TomAndrew91 if you want em, buy em!

Oh and @Yellow Saddle, I've still got my nice red wheels and these too
image.jpeg


:laugh:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

2IT

Everything and everyone suffers in comparisons.
Location
Georgia, USA
Location
Loch side.
some of that is right, but the weight of bike same as weight on wheel is simply wrong physics, at least for acceleration. The energy to accelerate an object to a given velocity is 1/2mv^2 as you no doubt know. However with a wheel, there is the additional energy in the spin of said wheel - how much depends on whether it's mostly rim or hub weight. I'd have to look up the sums on angular momentum to work out how much.

I'd also contend that I can certainly feel a kilo in my panniers - coming home from work with a book or two or my PC is harder work. Sure it's only 1% but uphill you notice - just as I notice carrying an ice axe on my rucksack in winter hillwalking
No need to look it up. I've already done the calculations for you and posted them on this very forum. There is an example, the calculations and the results for all to see. The point is that the difference is negligible because you are not only accelerating a wheel, but a wheel plus a 80kg mass and the wheel's portion of the energy required of that one big lump of intertia-tardy mass is ridiculously low.
 
Location
Loch side.
:eek:

I think you're imagining stuff but it is quite funny, I'll give you that!

There, it wasn't so hard to give "some" facts (and a lot of other stuff) was it?

Moral of this story @TomAndrew91 if you want em, buy em!

Oh and @Yellow Saddle, I've still got my nice red wheels and these too
View attachment 125693

:laugh:
The irony is that you too knew the facts because you had to be shown the light with sums and arithmetic, after which you changed your tune. Now you have changed your tune again to the standard, inevitable outcome of "if you want them, buy them." That's not how this started. We can all buy what we want with our money but justifying it with post-invented arguments is real silly.
 

KneesUp

Guru
No need to look it up. I've already done the calculations for you and posted them on this very forum. There is an example, the calculations and the results for all to see. The point is that the difference is negligible because you are not only accelerating a wheel, but a wheel plus a 80kg mass and the wheel's portion of the energy required of that one big lump of intertia-tardy mass is ridiculously low.
Also, cyclists tend to decelarate as well as accelerate.
 

2IT

Everything and everyone suffers in comparisons.
Location
Georgia, USA
No need to look it up. I've already done the calculations for you and posted them on this very forum. There is an example, the calculations and the results for all to see. The point is that the difference is negligible because you are not only accelerating a wheel, but a wheel plus a 80kg mass and the wheel's portion of the energy required of that one big lump of intertia-tardy mass is ridiculously low.
Yellow Saddle, first thank you for your writings on cycling.

In regards to the idea of a wheel plus 80kg of mass, making the mass of the wheel a very small part of the total is inaccurate in my view. That 80kg of "mass" is not a blob or a brick but an engine.

Many race cars have a large engine and car mechanics and racers are still trying to reduce the weight and mass of the components around that engine.

There is nothing wrong with having a V8 engine rather that a V4. Taking one's weight all the way down to the engine the size of a lawn mower would be no way to power a car. While gains can be made with weight reduction to the engine, gains can also be made by keeping the engine the same size or mass and increasing it's power.

Treating the 80kg as purely mass is a miscalculation in my mind. Hopefully much of the 80kg is engine.
 
Location
Loch side.
Yellow Saddle, first thank you for your writings on cycling.

In regards to the idea of a wheel plus 80kg of mass, making the mass of the wheel a very small part of the total is inaccurate in my view. That 80kg of "mass" is not a blob or a brick but an engine.

Many race cars have a large engine and car mechanics and racers are still trying to reduce the weight and mass of the components around that engine.

There is nothing wrong with having a V8 engine rather that a V4. Taking one's weight all the way down to the engine the size of a lawn mower would be no way to power a car. While gains can be made with weight reduction to the engine, gains can also be made by keeping the engine the same size or mass and increasing it's power.

Treating the 80kg as purely mass is a miscalculation in my mind. Hopefully much of the 80kg is engine.
I hope I interpret correctly what you are saying above.

I think you say that reducing the mass of "the engine" or increasing its power is beneficial. I agree. The lighter the engine, the higher the power to weight ratio (if you can keep the power constant). You can also improve the ratio by developing more power.

But I don't understand where this fits into the argument that mass saved on wheels make a significant difference or not. What don't I understand here?
 

Justinslow

Lovely jubbly
Location
Suffolk
The irony is that you too knew the facts because you had to be shown the light with sums and arithmetic, after which you changed your tune. Now you have changed your tune again to the standard, inevitable outcome of "if you want them, buy them." That's not how this started. We can all buy what we want with our money but justifying it with post-invented arguments is real silly.
I know that they don't make "huge" difference.
I know that they make "some"difference
I know that they make me faster.
I know they may not make you faster.
If the OP is happy with that then why not?
 
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