Reflective Tips (Part 2)

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mattsr

Senior Member
Aren't you over-egging the risk compensation issue here?
If you take it to the logical limit, you would get rid of the lights as well, and simply avoid riding at night.

Following the argument that reflectives make cyclists feel safer, and therefore ride less sensibly, perhaps we should all simply get rid of our lights at night as well. After all, we're going to ride MUCH more carefully if we can't see where we're going........:wacko:
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Lots of sporting cyclists don't ride in the dark, just ask the people in your local club...
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
I feel as though I've just arrived in some sort of parallel universe reading some of the posts in this thread. smileys-confused-140297.gif

How can it be anything other than simple common sense to wear reflectives?

No one is saying it isn't common sense to wear them. Do read the thread properly. The people challenging the assumptions also wear reflectives. The scab we are picking at is are they as effective as their advocates claim...

Arguments based on it increases the chances you will be seen founder on the significant % of drivers who won't see you nor matter what.
 

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Little yellow Brompton

A dark destroyer of biscuits!
Location
Bridgend
Because there is a cost involved in each case. Not just a monetary cost, but a time and a signicificant inconvenience cost, and a social cost. Given that 99%+ of bike journeys don't invovle an accident/incident some people want/need to save themselves incurring those costs.

I wish manufacturers would make jackets where the tiny reflective stripe isn't hid behind a rucksack, given that's the most practical mode of transport for me. I wish they'd make gloves that have refective tape on them as well. .

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/altura-night-vision-windproof-winter-cycling-gloves/
 

Bicycle

Guest
If people on the road looking at you can see your reflectives before they can see your lights, then you need to spend a bit more on lights and/or get some more modern LEDs. ;)

There is much in this argument, but it doesn't fully counter the case for reflectives.

It's not about what the driver sees first. As a driver I may see one, two or more disembodied red lights ahead of me on an unlit rural A-Road. They may be some distance ahead. I am likely to have little sense of the nature, speed or position of the vehicle whose presence they are alearting me to. That will come much later.

If the rider is wearing reflectives, I will often be able to plot the shape, position, speed and type of vehicle into my thinking.

As a driver, I find it helpful to have as much visual information as I can, as early as I can. There is much, much more to this story than the simple "I saw you/I didn't see you" issue. A light, a pair of lights, even a bank of lights will just say "Lights ahead". That's helpful in its own way, but reflectives give more clues and helpfully so.

Non-driving cyclists (or those who rarely drive) may disagree on this point, but experienced, regular drivers will generally be as one here. I do not say 'good drivers', just people who spend time passing cyclists after dark on unlit roads.

Drivers will generally prefer riders to wear reflective clothing, because it gives more visual clues, earlier in the encounter. As cyclists we share the roads with drivers. Drivers pilot big, hurty, metal deathbringers* around our roads. That being the case, why not wear something that will give the driver more of a clue?

*Not really my view of cars, but not an entirely inaccurate description despite all its excess.
 

BlackPanther

Hyper-Fast Recumbent Riding Member.
Location
Doncaster.
BlackPanther I share your attitude but...

...how does your assumption work to prevent rear ending?


...take and hold primary, especially at red lights and left hand bends to prevent overtakes. The more of the road you use (when safe to do so) the more visible you are.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
...take and hold primary, especially at red lights and left hand bends to prevent overtakes. The more of the road you use (when safe to do so) the more visible you are.

Primary at red lights. Yep I'll go with that. Cost me a new rear triangle on a Brompton and a written off Hard Rock over a five year period in London in the early 00's.

Primary on left hand bends.... not so sure. It is going to depend on the bend and the nature of the road. NSL country road, Closing speed differential of 40 - 50 mph, drivers not using speed appropriately (when do we ever?), not driving within what they can see, even if they are looking, come around the bend, closing fast, and I'm in the middle of the lane.

I can think of four places on my homeward 20km rural commute where that could get me hurt; and one of the four actually has with a trip to A&E and a mashed back wheel. Reflectives on jacket, on trousers, on ankles, on shoes, pedal reflectors, and three, yes 3, back lights. Screech! Thud!

I'll hug the kerb on those left handers and take my chances.

If they aren't looking they won't see you. If they are going too fast sometimes they can't see you.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Aren't you over-egging the risk compensation issue here?
If you take it to the logical limit, you would get rid of the lights as well, and simply avoid riding at night.
A little for the sake of scab picking...

I don't think so. Look at the number of helmet urban cyclists, aka bomb-dodgers in London, covered in flouro and reflectives using poxy lights. Really really crappy low output tiny LED flashers with huge long pauses between each flash...

... they look to me like they are relying on their hi-viz to make them visible. In traffic it just doesn't work.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
There is much in this argument, but it doesn't fully counter the case for reflectives.
.
.
.

Drivers will generally prefer riders to wear reflective clothing, because it gives more visual clues, earlier in the encounter. As cyclists we share the roads with drivers. Drivers pilot big, hurty, metal deathbringers* around our roads. That being the case, why not wear something that will give the driver more of a clue?

*Not really my view of cars, but not an entirely inaccurate description despite all its excess.
I get were you're going, I think. I like where your going. No one is trying to counter the case for reflectives, well, I'm not, just too tease out the assumptions behind their use.

Down my way regular commuting drivers regularly get radar trapped by a flouro clad copper lit up like a reflective Xtmas Tree using a hand held 'gun' on my commute. Why don't the drivers a) stick to the 30mph limit or b) see the copper and respond? My take; if the flouro and reflectives are perceived to be static they are disregarded.

Drivers prefer stuff that moves, that is what catches their attention and pierces their semiconscious state. Flailing legs and pedals. All else is disregarded until they are too close. A red light that doesn't appear to be moving is just a red light, a reflective that doesn't appear to be moving is just anything reflective really. To you, and I, and a whole host of others who cycle it screams CYCLIST! but then we are the ones who are looking aren't we?
 

Little yellow Brompton

A dark destroyer of biscuits!
Location
Bridgend
I get were you're going, I think. I like where your going. No one is trying to counter the case for reflectives, well, I'm not, just too tease out the assumptions behind their use.

Down my way regular commuting drivers regularly get radar trapped by a flouro clad copper lit up like a reflective Xtmas Tree using a hand held 'gun' on my commute. Why don't the drivers a) stick to the 30mph limit or b) see the copper and respond? My take; if the flouro and reflectives are perceived to be static they are disregarded.

Of course it is , HiVi* is worn by road workers, road workers are static, therefore anything wearing HiVi is static . I shudder when I see POBs wearing HiVi that they have scrounged from work as a cheap "safety" measure.

* By HiVi I mean Class 2 or 3 clothing as defined by BS thingy... rather than cycling specific clothing or ankle/wrist bands.
 

Norm

Guest
Digital camera: Shutter speed? Que? Aperture? Que? ISO? Que?
If you check the EXIF data on the original image (most Windows operating systems will show it if you right click the file and click on properties) then that will show the shutter speed, aperture, flash status, camera type, focal length.... etc
 

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
Digital camera: Shutter speed? Que? Aperture? Que? ISO? Que?

You can't set much of that on most compacts. I've got a 'big' compact that's like an SLR, and I struggle with all the manual the settings. ISO is speed of exposure (used to be the film's sensitivity - higher ISO more sensitive to light) but for comparison of lights , there are some standard settings if you can set them on your camera !
 

BlackPanther

Hyper-Fast Recumbent Riding Member.
Location
Doncaster.
That will never prevent being rear ended, only reduce the apparent chances of one.

Yes but isn't that what the threads gist is all about.....reducing risks? At the end of the day cycling IS more dangerous than driving. Other than spend our lives sitting in an underground bunker we can't absolutely eliminate all risks, but high viz, good lights, good road positioning, regular mechanical checks, staying within the law, and a relaxed attitude to others mistakes gives me a far better chance of making it home in one unsquashed piece.

In fact the only way I can think of to guarantee I won't be rear ended is to unicycle to work......backwards.:crazy:
 
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