RLJ-ing: A Minority Pastime?

[Dan B]

You've both broken the law. I don't know (or care) whether you're a better person or not cos that's irrelevant.

OK, let me phrase the question better: are you seriously suggesting that having entered the asz illegally robs me of any basis on which to criticize a driver who does something dangerous?

 

[martint235]

OK, let me phrase the question better: are you seriously suggesting that having entered the asz illegally robs me of any basis on which to criticize a driver who does something dangerous?

Well put it this way, if you do and then criticise the driver in the car next to you in the ASZ then you're a hypocrite

 

[martint235]

Right I counted. On my route to work, I have 36 sets of lights. There are 6 ASZs, only 1 of which doesn't have a gate (that was surprising, thought there were more. That puts perception back in its box).

I didn't go through any red lights or enter an ASZ while the light was red. I used one small section of cycle lane as it helps to filter on what is quite a narrow road.

The road was damp, I've got a 100 miler to ride tonight so I was by no means pushing it. I still maintained an average of 15.3mph. I would not have had a higher average from going through the red lights.

 

[Dan B]

Because I'm feeling particularly bored. Here's Old St to Oxford Circus with (I think, difficult to tell on some junctions) 4 lights.

An exceedingly inventive effort, but sadly I count at least seven.

Well put it this way, if you do and then criticise the driver in the car next to you in the ASZ then you're a hypocrite

But that wasn't the question. The question was whether I can criticise a driver who's had three pints. That wasn't even going to be the followup question, which was "how about a driver who's had no sleep in two days?"

Have a good FNRTTC, by the way. I'm missing it again this month :-(

 

[martint235]

An exceedingly inventive effort, but sadly I count at least seven.

But that wasn't the question. The question was whether I can criticise a driver who's had three pints. That wasn't even going to be the followup question, which was "how about a driver who's had no sleep in two days?"

Have a good FNRTTC, by the way. I'm missing it again this month :-(

This I don't feel particularly able to comment on as by the time I get home tomorrow I won't have had any sleep for close to 36 hours. However as far as I know it isn't illegal.

The driver who is just over the limit is likely to be driving far more carefully than if he/she hadn't had any alcohol at all. However their reasoning for breaking the law will be exactly the same as the person who jumps a red light into the ASZ.

All through this thread, what I'm trying to get across is why break a law that is so easy not to break. It's as if cyclists are going out of their way to break the law.

It should be a good FNRttC tonight although likely to be cold!!

 

[Scruffmonster]

I would not have had a higher average from going through the red lights.

[I hope we've moved away from name calling, preaching, and urges to convince others of our righteousness.... That's aimed as much at me as anyone else]

Getting some facts out is interesting and has a purpose though?.....

The average speed thing is often quoted but always wrong. It's obviously quicker to jump lights. You've only got to run some numbers. Using my example of 10 out of 19 not adhered to, with an arbitrary speed added;

15 Miles in 1 Hour = 15mph average speed

Average red light wait = 60 seconds
10 x 60 seconds = 10 minutes
15 Miles in 1hr 10Mins = 12.85mph average

Average red light wait = 30 seconds
10 x 30 seconds = 5 minutes
15 Miles in 1hr 5Mins = 13.84mph average

Unless of course you're talking about moving average speed, which obviously wouldn't be affected, but is irrelevant.

I took the day off as I'm away on the bike this weekend, but I'll have a crack in both directions on Monday, waiting at every light, to see how much time it adds. I reckon it will add 10-15 minutes to my commute.

 

[martint235]

[I hope we've moved away from name calling, preaching, and urges to convince others of our righteousness.... That's aimed as much at me as anyone else]

Getting some facts out is interesting and has a purpose though?.....

The average speed thing is often quoted but always wrong. It's obviously quicker to jump lights. You've only got to run some numbers. Using my example of 10 out of 19 not adhered to, with an arbitrary speed added;

15 Miles in 1 Hour = 15mph average speed

Average red light wait = 60 seconds
10 x 60 seconds = 10 minutes
15 Miles in 1hr 10Mins = 12.85mph average

Average red light wait = 30 seconds
10 x 30 seconds = 5 minutes
15 Miles in 1hr 5Mins = 13.84mph average

Unless of course you're talking about moving average speed, which obviously wouldn't be affected, but is irrelevant.

I took the day off as I'm away on the bike this weekend, but I'll have a crack in both directions on Monday, waiting at every light, to see how much time it adds. I reckon it will add 10-15 minutes to my commute.

I'll maintain that the only way a red light would seriously affect my average speed is if I was on an empty road and then stopping for red lights. What slows me is traffic and roundabouts.

I'm assuming you at least slow for a red light which would have to be built in to your calculations.

 

[Scruffmonster]

I'll maintain that the only way a red light would seriously affect my average speed is if I was on an empty road and then stopping for red lights. What slows me is traffic and roundabouts.

I can't tally your first paragraph with my mock work up. If you stop, it kills your average speed. Kills it.

Let's say you ride 20 miles (The length of my commute) hitting every green light, in 1 hour. That's an average speed of 20mph.

Now, hit every green aside from the two biggest junctions that result in a solid 2 minute wait. You take 1hr 4mins to cover 20 Miles. That's an average of 18.75mph. Huge difference*.

I don't know if maybe you're suggesting that you don't ride fast enough to hit the Red and ride slower to ensure you hit a green. I've tried this for a time but I find I end up amongst cars. I'd rather lead cars away from a red than merge with them on green.

Anyway, This can actually evolve into a decent study.

Anyone know how I could set up a Garmin to register this? If I just hit lap everytime I stop and start, I'd build a profile of time spent not moving and moving, right?

EDIT = * - I fully understand that 4 minutes is not a huge slice of life. The illustration is merely one of average speed and the effect that stopping has.

 

[martint235]

Let's say you ride 20 miles (The length of my commute) hitting every green light, in 1 hour. That's an average speed of 20mph.

Now, hit every green aside from the two biggest junctions that result in a solid 2 minute wait. You take 1hr 4mins to cover 20 Miles. That's an average of 18.75mph. Huge difference*.

This isn't real world cycling though. I will probably lose more speed by hitting a line of traffic at a light that has just turned green than I would hitting a line of traffic queueing at a red (due to being able to filter which I wouldn't do alongside traffic starting to move).

I agree it would be interesting to find out by doing a series of experiments but unsure how to gather accurate data.

 

[dodd82]

I can see both your points here - it reminds me of an old episode of Top Gear where Jeremy Clarkson refused to accept that not speeding/rushing in rush hour makes no difference to your arrival time.

We all accept that stopping at red lights will reduce your average speed if analysed with no other interruptions.

But what martin is trying to get across, I believe, is that stopping at red lights is such a minimal part of his journey, and there are so many other factors, that there is no correlation between jumping red lights and getting to work earlier.

A point that the racers in rush hour would do well to consider I think.

 

[400bhp]

Materiality is the word that's been omitted.

I believe Martin is implying that [low level] RLJ is immaterial on commute journey times. Forget averages.

I'd be inclined to agree.

My immaterial threshold would probably be about 7 mins per hour.

One simple broadbrush experiment would be to pick a route to work and stick to it for, say a month. Jump reds/don't jump reds every other day. Stick between a min/max cruising speed. Average out the commutes where RLJ and average out where don't RLJ.

I'm in no way advocating doing this though!! Jumping reds is not on.

 

[benb]

The driver who is just over the limit is likely to be driving far more carefully than if he/she hadn't had any alcohol at all. However their reasoning for breaking the law will be exactly the same as the person who jumps a red light into the ASZ.

I can't believe you are seriously suggesting someone entering an ASZ illegally is just as dangerous as someone who is driving over the alcohol limit.

 

[400bhp]

I can't believe you are seriously suggesting someone entering an ASZ illegally is just as dangerous as someone who is driving over the alcohol limit.

I don't believe he is, I believe he's stating that it makes it difficult to take the moral high ground.

This doesn't mean I'm agreeing with Martin btw.

Forum "conversations" can be tricky can't they.

 

[Scruffmonster]

The experiment begins then.

I think I'd lose the will to live if I tried to stick it for a month, but I could do a week of each easy enough.

To reiterate for anyone that hasn't read all that went before this... I'm not talking about brazen, aggressive, speed laden RLJing at every junction.

 

[Davidsw8]

Isn't it worth a journey potentially taking an extra 10-15 mins if it means you're so much less likely to get hurt (or hurt someone else)? Personally, I'd rather get to where I'm going a little later than not at all...