RLJ-ing: A Minority Pastime?

[dellzeqq]

A good deal of my London cycling is done on CS7 and I think that there's been a marked improvement in the last couple of years. It may be that peer pressure has something to do with this - people are more reluctant to jump reds if a whole bunch of cyclists have stopped.

 

[dellzeqq]

South London commute here via Streatham/Tooting/Wimbledon.
The VAST majority (80%+) of cyclist jump red lights.

I think that's complete and utter nonsense

 

[summerdays]

True, but I think that you will find that many lights that are not instant are that way because they are synchronising their red phase with the other lights.

No I think that they are that way because they prioritise motor traffic over pedestrian traffic.

Thinking about the pedestrian lights near lights at junctions that I know of here, I don't think any of them are linked - well maybe a couple in the city centre? I can think of several occasions when on the road you go through the junction only to find the pedestrian set of lights on red for the road traffic (as a pedestrian I wouldn't notice what is happening up the road).

 

[defy-one]

Sorry but it's not the truth, it's utter b****cks. I commuted to Central London for years maintaining an average speed upwards of 16mph stopping for every red. Rljing is just impatient selfishness whether you do it on a bike or in a car.

Just my opinion .....
I see it so often that it has become the norm. This is going East down the uxbridge road towards shepherds bush.

 

[AndyPeace]

If it's so safe to jump red lights, why not ditch them altogether? or pass a law to say cyclist's don't have to stop at red lights?

That's exactly what has been trialled in some French cities - Lyon for example - with success and is now being extended to Paris.

I made a poor atempt to find out more about these trials, but came up with nothing. What did they trial in theese cities? and how did they define it a success?

 

[Recycle]

[QUOTE 2116644, member: 45"]I'd like it to go the other way. I could give examples of very busy pedestrian areas where I think the default should be green man and red traffic light until a sufficient number of vehicles are there to warrant stopping pedestrians.[/quote]
With a button for the motorist to push?

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

I made a poor atempt to find out more about these trials, but came up with nothing. What did they trial in theese cities? and how did they define it a success?

I've not checked yet so I'm not 100% sure but I seem to remember the trials were about turning right on red lights.

EDIT: turning right or going straight on at a T-junction. See http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3311182.ece
And a bit more detail here: http://road.cc/content/news/52423-p...trial-scheme-allow-red-light-jumping-cyclists

 

[Davidsw8]

On my commute I'd say most of us do, so it seems to me that it's generally accepted, which would by your logic imply that it's only the idiot minority that complain about it.

In heavy traffic, surrounded by heavy vehicles themselves shooting the lights, it's often by far the safest way to get about, deal with it.

Hi Nigel

Well, it's actually an offence to RLJ rather than a personal irk so it's not a question of dealing with it. I cycle in very heavy traffic and manage not to get surrounded by these heavy vehicles but maybe I've just been very lucky...

However, by far the majority of these RLJ'rs aren't doing so to get out of an unsafe situation (they're doing it at the very same lights I'm at), they're doing it to get ahead of everyone else for the sake of it (which they don't end up doing anyway).

 

[Davidsw8]

It's very very common in Central London. Not on major junctions,but the countless pedestrian crossing,where the pedestrians have given up waiting and already crossed.
Don't see an issue with that personally.
If cyclists stopped at every light (see above) in London ... They might as well sit in a car or bus as the time advantage in commuting would be lost.
That might not be a popular thing to say,but it is the truth for central London.

I totally disagree, I stop at every single red even if the street is deserted and I get where I'm going in excellent time.

In fact, my partner used to RLJ until he started to cycle to work with a mate who made him stop at all the lights and he got to work exactly the same time... and less stressed!

I don't get this attitude of 'I'll do it if I can get away with it', would that rationale carry on to cover other offences?

 

[nigelnorris]

Hi Nigel

Well, it's actually an offence to RLJ rather than a personal irk so it's not a question of dealing with it. I cycle in very heavy traffic and manage not to get surrounded by these heavy vehicles but maybe I've just been very lucky...

However, by far the majority of these RLJ'rs aren't doing so to get out of an unsafe situation (they're doing it at the very same lights I'm at), they're doing it to get ahead of everyone else for the sake of it (which they don't end up doing anyway).

Maybe, round my way it seems that red lights are merely advisory to motorised traffic. Worst case scenario is turning right, oncoming traffic keeps oncoming all the way through red lights and then only stops when the traffic coming in the other direction gets in the way. Sitting at the front and waiting for a gap to slip between this traffic is too dangerous for words, not least because drivers behind get antsy. Coming out into the junction even worse because it's too easy to be still stuck there long after the lights have changed and the traffic is coming from somewhere new. Much safer to just go when there's a suitable gap, regardless of what the lights say. Best time is when all the lights are red to let pedestrians out, just idle safely in the middle of it all then stamp on it when the crossings are clear of foot traffic.

Doesn't much matter if its an offence, I've never been pulled and frankly it would be worth the occasional 30 quid fine to keep a slightly safer journey.

 

[martint235]

I note you say 'to' not 'through'. I think I once counted every signal-controlled junction between Old St roundabout and Oxford Circus, and it averaged about one every 120 metres. What average moving speed and what top speed would you have to ride between those lights to get a 16mph average including stops? Certainly faster than I'd be happier riding in 12mph traffic

Use a different route then. There's probably a route between those two places with about 5 signal controlled junctions on it.

And the Old Kent Road from Deptford up to the New Kent Road, through E&C and on through Westminster into Trafalgar Sq probably has a traffic signal every 200m or so at a guess (I never bothered to count them).

 

[Davidsw8]

Maybe, round my way it seems that red lights are merely advisory to motorised traffic. Worst case scenario is turning right, oncoming traffic keeps oncoming all the way through red lights and then only stops when the traffic coming in the other direction gets in the way. Sitting at the front and waiting for a gap to slip between this traffic is too dangerous for words, not least because drivers behind get antsy. Coming out into the junction even worse because it's too easy to be still stuck there long after the lights have changed and the traffic is coming from somewhere new. Much safer to just go when there's a suitable gap, regardless of what the lights say. Best time is when all the lights are red to let pedestrians out, just idle safely in the middle of it all then stamp on it when the crossings are clear of foot traffic.

Doesn't much matter if its an offence, I've never been pulled and frankly it would be worth the occasional 30 quid fine to keep a slightly safer journey.

If someone really perceives themselves to be in real harms way then I don't see a problem with them chancing the red light, I just personally don't see very many cases where that applies.

As for the penalty aspect, I think that's the trouble with many traffic offences like mobile phone use and driving, people think 'ah, it's only a couple of points and £60, and I won't get caught anyway so it's deffo worth the risk'. If something's an offence, it needs to be enforced and the penalty needs to be a deterrent, otherwise you may as well not bother.

 

[Scruffmonster]

In London?...

I'd say the number is under 10%. At least 90% of cyclists do not RLJ.

You may have 60%+ of junctions that have at least one red light jumper though, but that's not the same thing.

I spend a lot of time at junctions, often surrounded by 10 cyclists. It's rare to see more than one, maybe two, go on regardless.

By all means lynch me, but there are several junctions where I'll proceed with caution regardless of the colour of the light.

This one for example - http://goo.gl/maps/OYRgx (I keep way left)

I don't think that I'm big, special, or clever, but at this junction, and others, you can proceed with 100% certainty that you're not going to have an interaction with a pedestrian or vehicle. I don't need an endorsement, just stating my opinion.

I'm not advocating flying through any junction at speed, that's moronic, but whilst cycling, walking, or driving, there are many many junctions that I don't give a damn about cycles RLJ'ing.

It's the tools that do it here - http://goo.gl/maps/dhIGI - and places like it which baffle me.

That's all I've got.

 

[martint235]

By all means lynch me, but there are several junctions where I'll proceed with caution regardless of the colour of the light.

This one for example - http://goo.gl/maps/OYRgx (I keep way left)

I don't think that I'm big, special, or clever, but at this junction, and others, you can proceed with 100% certainty that you're not going to have an interaction with a pedestrian or vehicle. I don't need an endorsement, just stating my opinion.

I know that junction well. My obvious question is, if your criteria is no interaction with pedestrian or vehicle, why jump that red light when 20 yards on is a synchronised pedestrian crossing that goes to red seconds after the first set or do you jump that one too?

 

[Recycle]

If someone really perceives themselves to be in real harms way then I don't see a problem with them chancing the red light, I just personally don't see very many cases where that applies.

That's true. On one or two occasions I have used my judgement when car is sucking my back wheel. The safety argument becomes stretched when this behaviour is more routine than by exception.