Road tax

[dawesome]

I think he resents everybody and everything especially if they don't fit his understanding

The resentment is from drivers- the kind of drivers who spout the road tax myth. Bajic was trolling, again, and you didn't bother to read the thread and repeated his dishonesty. What was that about lack of understanding?

 

[mr_hippo]

Driven to Kill: Vehicles as Weapons.

University of Alberta associate professor of Public Health J. Peter Rothe researched just this topic for his book Driven to Kill: Vehicles As Weapons.


He writes about intentional violence of all types aided by automobile. A central theme of this book, according to Dr Rothe, is that “police investigations are not engaged on the assumption that a driver deliberately uses his vehicle as a weapon for maiming or killing a pedestrian, cyclist, or other roadway users.”
Proof?
“Stress! Vengeance! Impatience! Entitlement! Aggression! Mood! are prominent factors,” in traffic crashes, says Rothe, but accident investigations still focus on engineering and mechanical factors rather than the human element.
I know that Canadian English is slightly differeny to British English but since when did exclamation marks replace commas? Sentence should read “Stress, vengeance, impatience, entitlement, aggression and mood are prominent factors in traffic crashes",
He has a chapter on violence against cyclists in particular, violence which is motivated by a motorist’s feeling of entitlement to the road and irritation that cyclists don’t pay a mythical “road tax” What is mythical about road tax? amongst other imagined sins and shortcomings. “A ‘might is right’ mentality erupts in some drivers,” That has always happened - My grandad's Humber Super Snipe was better than his neighbour's Morris 8, Dad`s Granada was better than his mate`s Avenger and my brother`s Volvo was better than my Imp and therefore all lesser vehicles should give way! Rothe writes, “that pushes them to discipline [cyclists], to teach them a lesson, which sometimes means steering their cars into bikes, pulling into the bikers paths, or purposely swerving into marked bike lanes.” [page 112]

Rothe covers much more than just car vs bike and road rage incidents in his book. He has a section devoted entirely to what he calls the “Immediate Zone” — the murderer plans and uses his car as the murder weapon. What utter poppcock! “The car,” he prosaically writes, “makes direct contact with a victim.”
Rothe doesn’t set out to demonize automobiles in his book, but to point out that automotive violence is a reflection of our violent culture. Instead of seeing vehicular violence as a normal, naturally occurring part of our transportation infrastructure, he wants to reframe it as a public health issue.
Book: Driven to Kill: Vehicles As Weapons by J. Peter Rothe. 2008.

http://ibikelondon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/parliamentary-cycle-safe-debate-start.html


Anyone who thinks this resentment, sometimes leading to violence, doesn't exist is very naive.

If it were still on TV, Jackanory would be the perfect vehicle for this drivel!

 

[subaqua]

The resentment is from drivers- the kind of drivers who spout the road tax myth. Bajic was trolling, again, and you didn't bother to read the thread and repeated his dishonesty. What was that about lack of understanding?

oh the irony . why don't you read my post again and see what you understand by it. just because part of your name has awesome in it doesn't actually mean you are .

 

[dawesome]

If it were still on TV, Jackanory would be the perfect vehicle for this drivel!

The families of Alan Scott and Emily Kirwin would probably disagree with you.

 

[User269]

I think the OP is quite right to have raised this issue as having been discussed in the media again, and subsequent posts, such as that about the Fiat ad. The myth that motorists pay for the roads needs to be challenged as it's sometimes used to excuse dangerous or even homicidal drivers who have a sense of entitlement. Interestingly, 'sense of entitlement' is a term used by psychologists to describe one of the diagnostic criteria for psychopathic personality disorder.

The roads are for all of us to use. It's your Council Tax that pays for their upkeep and building, with the exception of motorways and some trunk roads, which are paid for out of general taxation. As you can imagine, VED represents a tiny percentage of general taxation; most people pay more per month in income tax than they do for a year's VED for example.

 

[Boris Bajic]

The resentment is from drivers- the kind of drivers who spout the road tax myth. Bajic was trolling, again, and you didn't bother to read the thread and repeated his dishonesty. What was that about lack of understanding?

Dawesome, I'm not sure where you thought I was being dishonest or where you think Subaqua repeated my dishonesty.

I disagree with you, but that doesn't make me a troll and it doesn't make me dishonest.

I pop the odd light-hearted post onto threads, but that is not trolling.

I'd be interested to see where you thought I was being dishonest.

I'm afraid I agree with Mr Hippo is his Jackanory assessment. As soon as the title Associate Professor of Public Health at the University of Alberta is used to validate an opinion, the world stops listening.

 

[dawesome]

Dawesome, I'm not sure where you thought I was being dishonest or where you think Subaqua repeated my dishonesty.

I disagree with you, but that doesn't make me a troll and it doesn't make me dishonest.

I pop the odd light-hearted post onto threads, but that is not trolling.

I'd be interested to see where you thought I was being dishonest.

I'm afraid I agree with Mr Hippo is his Jackanory assessment. As soon as the title Associate Professor of Public Health at the University of Alberta is used to validate an opinion, the world stops listening.

I explained that the "road tax" myth fosters the kind of violence meted out to Mr Scott and Ms Kirwin. The resentment felt by drivers, bolstered by the fallacious tax argument can cause horribly violent acts. There is no way you could have read the post and reasonably drawn the conclusion that the resentment was mine. You were trolling. Again.

If you can tell us what you think may be causing this resentment in you Dawesome, we might be able to help.

Why did you think the resentment in connection with two instances of drivers using their vehicle as a weapon was on my part, not the drivers?

 

[dawesome]

I think the OP is quite right to have raised this issue as having been discussed in the media again, and subsequent posts, such as that about the Fiat ad. The myth that motorists pay for the roads needs to be challenged as it's sometimes used to excuse dangerous or even homicidal drivers who have a sense of entitlement. Interestingly, 'sense of entitlement' is a term used by psychologists to describe one of the diagnostic criteria for psychopathic personality disorder.

The roads are for all of us to use. It's your Council Tax that pays for their upkeep and building, with the exception of motorways and some trunk roads, which are paid for out of general taxation. As you can imagine, VED represents a tiny percentage of general taxation; most people pay more per month in income tax than they do for a year's VED for example.

It's dangerous in more than one way. The media rely heavily on car advertising so they have an interest in perpetuating the "Poor over-taxed motorist" myth when the reality is private motoring is massively subsidised. So, the media are complicit in whipping up hysteria about "Free Loading Cyclists", with the violent results cited upthread.

 

[Boris Bajic]

It's dangerous in more than one way. The media rely heavily on car advertising so they have an interest in perpetuating the "Poor over-taxed motorist" myth when the reality is private motoring is massively subsidised. So, the media are complicit in whipping up hysteria about "Free Loading Cyclists", with the violent results cited upthread.

Dawesome, you are an absolute hoot. I'm dying here.

I'm not sure whether your stern (online) countenance is a true measure of some self-absorbed, high-moral-tone pomposity, or whether you're about to break into peels of laughter brought on by the brilliance of your conceit.

I have a funny feeling that you're not being entirely serious, as no-one who took themselves or their opinions as seriously as you seem to purport to would set themselves up like this online.

Please, please tell us! Is this just an amusing game or do you really believe all this stuff you're posting?

These mentions of fatal-RTC victims you like to fall back on like a moral Ace in the Hole whenever the argument seems to be swinging away from you... It's all too, too much. It seems a little rehearsed. It's not serious, is it?

I've squatted next to SMIDSY victims and held their hand as they slipped away from life before the ambulance arrived (pedestrians, not cyclists). One of them was muttering and gasping in a way that was quite distressing, but died nonetheless. It is all jolly upsetting, but it's a bit gauche and self-indulgently gratuitous to make a link between fatal RTCs and the Road Tax argument....

... Unless you're winding everyone up. In which case, it's just insensitive.

Either way, I take my hat off to you for your brazen lack of inhibition.

 

[Linford]

It's dangerous in more than one way. The media rely heavily on car advertising so they have an interest in perpetuating the "Poor over-taxed motorist" myth when the reality is private motoring is massively subsidised. So, the media are complicit in whipping up hysteria about "Free Loading Cyclists", with the violent results cited upthread.

The roads need to be maintained irrespective of all who use them. How about this as a proposal, They ban all private cars from the road, and then tax all of the remaining ones back up to the levels so they can then continue to spend that surplus quantity of money to prop up the NHS, Welfare system, Foreign aid, Euro contributions, and the Diamond Jubilee pageant

That should put about £500 onto your tax bill PA as that is a typical sum which you would spend on keeping a car legal each year before it turns a wheel. It of course will be worth it to just share the roads with the buses and HGVs when you go out

 

[400bhp]

Both original and good

Werthers?

 

[downfader]

The roads need to be maintained irrespective of all who use them. How about this as a proposal, They ban all private cars from the road, and then tax all of the remaining ones back up to the levels so they can then continue to spend that surplus quantity of money to prop up the NHS, Welfare system, Foreign aid, Euro contributions, and the Diamond Jubilee pageant

That should put about £500 onto your tax bill PA as that is a typical sum which you would spend on keeping a car legal each year before it turns a wheel. It of course will be worth it to just share the roads with the buses and HGVs when you go out

But would it?

The Institute of Fiscal Studies (I think already detailed earlier in this thread) have already shown in the past few years that motoring is costing the taxpayer a lot extra. More than is ever paid in through motoring taxation. And shockingly each time these "externalities", as economists put it, are evaluated they seem to come up with more economic impacts previously unseen and unquantified into the overall evaluation.

This is why concrete road surfacing sometimes gets used on major roads and motorways - its cheap, long lasting and easy to maintain so brings down the costs. Look at similar routes where HGVs and large amounts of fast and heavy traffic get used and you'll see problems with both the road surfacing and the costs (the a33 is one iirc near here).

There is some argument that removing some motor traffic along some routes would actually benefit us all from an economic sense.

 

[dawesome]

Scrap VED altogether, just load the fuel, pay per mile. Also, no fuel stops without proof of insurance, but I fear this would lead to fist fights at petrol stations.

 

[subaqua]

Scrap VED altogether, just load the fuel, pay per mile. Also, no fuel stops without proof of insurance, but I fear this would lead to fist fights at petrol stations.

at last a post that makes sense. although how do those of us who have generators that run on petrol get fuel ? the basic idea is workable but like all mechanisms there will be a work around devised within a month or so

 

[downfader]

Dawesome, you are an absolute hoot. I'm dying here.

I'm not sure whether your stern (online) countenance is a true measure of some self-absorbed, high-moral-tone pomposity, or whether you're about to break into peels of laughter brought on by the brilliance of your conceit.

I have a funny feeling that you're not being entirely serious, as no-one who took themselves or their opinions as seriously as you seem to purport to would set themselves up like this online.

Please, please tell us! Is this just an amusing game or do you really believe all this stuff you're posting?

These mentions of fatal-RTC victims you like to fall back on like a moral Ace in the Hole whenever the argument seems to be swinging away from you... It's all too, too much. It seems a little rehearsed. It's not serious, is it?

I've squatted next to SMIDSY victims and held their hand as they slipped away from life before the ambulance arrived (pedestrians, not cyclists). One of them was muttering and gasping in a way that was quite distressing, but died nonetheless. It is all jolly upsetting, but it's a bit gauche and self-indulgently gratuitous to make a link between fatal RTCs and the Road Tax argument....

... Unless you're winding everyone up. In which case, it's just insensitive.

Either way, I take my hat off to you for your brazen lack of inhibition.

I think you're being overly harsh, even provocative at times, Boris.

There are plenty of stories I have read of local cyclists who have died or nearly been killed and some of the first comments made about how [paraphrased] "do no pay our way!"

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/dis....Cyclist_seriously_hurt_in_city_centre_crash/

You have to remember - thesedays many find this sort of comment offensive on stories where condolences and tribute should be made, as a result are more likely to report and the webteams in charge more likely to remove.

Death should never be a platform for the ranters. Unfortunately this is what happens, and the victim is somehow a little dehumanised as a result.