Road tax

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downfader

extimus uero philosophus
Location
'ampsheeeer
at last a post that makes sense. although how do those of us who have generators that run on petrol get fuel ? the basic idea is workable but like all mechanisms there will be a work around devised within a month or so

To all intents and purposes the pollution and problems caused via generators are the same as motoring. The only issue that doesnt really happen is road-wear.

Look at the travelling communities and gypsy communities - theres a reason why many are switching to solar cell and battery - fuel costs too much as it is. I can see the majority of generator users doing the same over the next few years.
 

subaqua

What’s the point
Location
Leytonstone
not sure if its a viable solution for building sites yet. ruggedness and durability are the main concrns for me in this respect. and when you get to batteries you have a huge pollution problem in the extraction of the raw materials and also in the production.
we did look into getting solar cells and an electric car but the maths for costs and pollution from manufacture/install didn't make it viable. maybe in 10 years it will be. I do hope so.
 

Linford

Guest
Scrap VED altogether, just load the fuel, pay per mile. Also, no fuel stops without proof of insurance, but I fear this would lead to fist fights at petrol stations.

Wholeheartedly agree with this first bit, but the insurance is a different matter. I would say that there is a strong argument for loading fuel duty additionally, and the balance would go to ensuring that all vehicles in possession of a current MOT are automatically insured with 3rd party liability for any driver legally entitled to drive or ride.
Higher levels of cover for fire/theft accidental damage would be covered by additional policies.

Vehicles with a higher BHP per tonne would require either grandfather rights or additional proof of testing/training, or be age dependent.
 

downfader

extimus uero philosophus
Location
'ampsheeeer
not sure if its a viable solution for building sites yet. ruggedness and durability are the main concrns for me in this respect. and when you get to batteries you have a huge pollution problem in the extraction of the raw materials and also in the production.
we did look into getting solar cells and an electric car but the maths for costs and pollution from manufacture/install didn't make it viable. maybe in 10 years it will be. I do hope so.

I think with building sites thats a fair point.

Robert Llewelyn (sp?) from Red Dwarf runs a Nissan Leaf from solar cells... though he has about 15 of the 5 footer ones..
 

Recycler

Well-Known Member
they have an interest in perpetuating the "Poor over-taxed motorist" myth when the reality is private motoring is massively subsidised.

Where do you get that idea from? The taxes from fuel, VED, Insurance, Council Tax and VAT more than pay for the roads, their maintenance and their policing. Probably many times over.


On the other point about dropping VED and loading fuel costs. I think that that is a good idea, but we would probably still need some kind of system to keep control of who owns what car, how it is identified (Reg. no.), MoT etc. At the moment that is all built into the VED system.
 

downfader

extimus uero philosophus
Location
'ampsheeeer
Where do you get that idea from? The taxes from fuel, VED, Insurance, Council Tax and VAT more than pay for the roads, their maintenance and their policing. Probably many times over.


On the other point about dropping VED and loading fuel costs. I think that that is a good idea, but we would probably still need some kind of system to keep control of who owns what car, how it is identified (Reg. no.), MoT etc. At the moment that is all built into the VED system.

Tonight on ITV regularly has a slot with people like Quentin Wilson, FairFuelUK have been on the BBC Breakfast a few times all talking about "hard pressed motorists". Even the Sun newspaper and co run these stories. I think there is a culture about motoring that is counter to the truth of the matter (eg where the money really comes from and why).

When you buy a car you have to register yourself as the owner with the DVLA as it is, surely this is enough for things like ANPR and police recognition. The rest of it is simply taxation on vehicle ownership as far as I can see.. if we really want to tax the ownership we should do thing through the insurer (even force stronger regulation on insurers for fair charges too)

Your point about the 6 year old is a valid one, too. When driving a car we're not expected to carry ID. If you're in a situation where age makes you exempt from a taxation for a vehicle type you would have to be obligated to carry ID. This would mean more legal wrangling imo.
 

dawesome

Senior Member
Where do you get that idea from? The taxes from fuel, VED, Insurance, Council Tax and VAT more than pay for the roads, their maintenance and their policing. Probably many times over.

The Campaign for Better Transport extrapolates from the Government research on marginal external costs to reach a total cost of externalities of £70 billion–£95 billion per annum at prices for 2006.
The Sustainable Development Commission, a non-departmental public body (2000-2011) responsible for advising the UK Governments, concluded:
“So it would appear that the overall costs imposed on society by motoring outweigh the revenues obtained from motorists, probably very substantially.”​
And the externalities of driving costs don’t include noise pollution (£3.1bn); air pollution (£19.7bn – not including CO2); water pollution (between £1bn and £16bn); or obesity (£2bn).

http://ipayroadtax.com/itv-ignorance-about-road-tax/why-isnt-beer-tax-used-to-build-better-pubs/

Private motoring is subsidised, motorists are a net drain on the economy.

There is a widespread perception that motorists are already unfairly taxed.
This is simply not true(1). In the year 2002-03 £26.5 billion was raised from fuel and road tax(2). Around £6bn went toward roadbuilding and maintenance that year(3). The cost of policing the roads and the expense incurred by the judicial system is estimated to be between £1bn and £3bn(4), while congestion costs businesses and other drivers £20bn in delay(5).
The costs of the effects of air pollution and accidents due to road transport were estimated at £12.3bn(6) and £16bn(7) respectively.
 

Recycler

Well-Known Member
When you buy a car you have to register yourself as the owner with the DVLA as it is, surely this is enough for things like ANPR and police recognition. The rest of it is simply taxation on vehicle ownership as far as I can see.. if we really want to tax the ownership we should do thing through the insurer (even force stronger regulation on insurers for fair charges too).

I think the problem comes when people sell their car and/or change address. At the moment the DVLA database is chock a block full of errors and as we know the DVLA never makes mistakes (cough, splutter, ahem!!!) it must be the motoring public which is at fault. In reality it's obviously both who are getting it wrong.

The other point I agree with. I have long thought that we should get rid of Road Tax/VED, put up fuel taxes and replace the "Tax" disc with an Insurance disk. That way drivers would inevitably pay for their pollution and their use of the road. It may also help reduce the problem of people driving uninsured. Beyond that, I have no idea how we would then ensure that we knew who owned what car and where they lived and that it was M.o.T'd.
The trouble is, if we tried to off-load the policing of it all onto the Insurance companies I dread to think what they would do in terms of pushing costs up, making errors and making us all wait and wait on call centre phone lines.
 

Recycler

Well-Known Member
http://ipayroadtax.com/itv-ignorance-about-road-tax/why-isnt-beer-tax-used-to-build-better-pubs/

Private motoring is subsidised, motorists are a net drain on the economy.

There is a widespread perception that motorists are already unfairly taxed.
This is simply not true(1). In the year 2002-03 £26.5 billion was raised from fuel and road tax(2). Around £6bn went toward road building and maintenance that year(3). The cost of policing the roads and the expense incurred by the judicial system is estimated to be between £1bn and £3bn(4), while congestion costs businesses and other drivers £20bn in delay(5).
The costs of the effects of air pollution and accidents due to road transport were estimated at £12.3bn(6) and £16bn(7) respectively.

Sorry, I can't get onto the link that you gave there. Something is either wrong with the site or my machine. So I'll work with what I can glean from your posting.

To be honest, I thought you would come back at me with figures of that sort. (nothing wrong with that). The problem with the congestion, judicial and pollution figures is that they are, inevitably, guesstimates rather than hard facts.....though I am not suggesting that there should be no attempt to quantify these things. But we also need to read beyond the figures.

Take the £20bn guesstimate for congestion. Does that mean that drivers should pay an extra 20bn in tax on top of the cost they have already incurred as a result of congestion? Or does it mean that we should make massive investment in the infrastructure to reduce congestion? Does it mean that only those who could afford to pay high taxes should have a car? Alternatively do we simply balance the books and spend less on the roads.......even though business, the economy and the roads themselves would inevitably grind to a halt.

The same applies to the air pollution and accident guesstimates. We could, in theory, just ban car driving on the basis that it doesn't pay its way. But the cost to our economy would be disastrous.

One other figure which does not appear to be included in what you have quoted is the contribution which the road network also makes to the economy in terms of the business which is genereated. Remove the employment and profits and taxes which are created by road and vehicle contruction and maintenance and a big hole would be created.

In a long winded way, I am saying that we need to look at the straightforward accounting figures (tax revenue versus actual cost of road construction and maintenance) and the "social cost" figures (the guesstimates) separately.

Yes, we need to be aware of the social costs, but to use them to make a sweeping statement that motoring is subsidised is, in my view, taking it too far. I can simply counter it by saying that without the road network our economy would collapse and not only would we have nowhere to ride, we would not even be able to afford to have bikes.

More importantly, I also believe that it is a mistake for cyclists to be attacking (for want of a better term) car drivers. We need them to be on our side. We need to share the road with them and we certainly need them to share the road with us. I really do believe that we would be better off by trying to win them over rather than confronting them and effectively saying "make them pay more tax"......even though it is very difficult at times and I can't claim to be an angel!
 

dawesome

Senior Member
Roads existed long before cars, they'll exist when our current car-reliance dissipates. They say to work out the real cost of fuel, drive your car 5 miles, then push it home. That's the real cost. We're unnaturally cossetted from the real cost of motoring because the externalities are, as you say, difficult to quantify, but as long as almost half of all urban car journeys are less than two miles long it's hard to see how the consequent sedentary lifestyle helps anyone. At school in the seventies we looked askance on any schoolchild driven to school, the bike sheds were crammed. Now most kids travel to school in a car (because the roads are so dangerous!). Madness.
 

downfader

extimus uero philosophus
Location
'ampsheeeer
Sorry, I can't get onto the link that you gave there. Something is either wrong with the site or my machine. So I'll work with what I can glean from your posting.

To be honest, I thought you would come back at me with figures of that sort. (nothing wrong with that). The problem with the congestion, judicial and pollution figures is that they are, inevitably, guesstimates rather than hard facts.....though I am not suggesting that there should be no attempt to quantify these things. But was also need to read beyond the figures.

Take the £20bn guesstimate for congestion. Does that mean that drivers should pay an extra 20bn in tax on top of the cost they have already incurred as a result of congestion? Or does it mean that we should make massive investment in the infrastructure to reduce congestion? Does it mean that only those who could afford to pay high taxes should have a car? Alternatively do we simply balance the books and spend less on the roads.......even though business, the economy and the roads themselves would inevitably grind to a halt.

The same applies to the air pollution and accident guesstimates. We could, in theory, just ban car driving on the basis that it doesn't pay its way. But the cost to our economy would be disastrous.

One other figure which does not appear to be included in what you have quoted is the contribution which the road network also makes to the economy in terms of the business which is genereated. Remove the employment and profits and taxes which are created by road and vehicle contruction and maintenance and a big hole would be created.

In a long winded way, I am saying that we need to look at the straightforward accounting figures (tax revenue versus actual cost of road construction and maintenance) and the "social cost" figures (the guesstimates) separately.

Yes, we need to be aware of the social costs, but to use them to make a sweeping statement that motoring is subsidised is, in my view, taking it too far. I can simply counter it by saying that without the road network our economy would collapse and not only would we have nowhere to ride, we would not even be able to afford to have bikes.

More importantly, I also believe that it is a mistake for cyclists to be attacking (for want of a better term) car drivers. We need them to be on our side. We need to share the road with them and we certainly need them to share the road with us. I really do believe that we would be better off by trying to win them over rather than confronting them and effectively saying "make them pay more tax"......even though it is very difficult at times and I can't claim to be an angel!

The £20bn is a pretty good guestimate based on the business made during days of low traffic compared to those when logistics firms get stuck in. Firms such as UPS, Royal Mail and co have pretty good understandings of how traffic effects business. Even bus companies have worked out how to best make money around traffic concerns (though monorail systems might be a much better option in the future for fuel costs and traffic issues). The London School of Economics have a history of evaluating these too and they are the source of the £20bn figure.

The best evaluation we have for economics of how much money is brought in via motoring is around £50 billion.
http://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/uk-automotive-sector/#economy-and-business

I think the most important points are these:
- cyclists are not attacking motorists. They are attacking (along with many others, many of whom are also drivers it should be noted) misconceptions about social and environmental impact
- an economy based upon motoring will crash severely when the oil runs out. It is already severely affected when oil prices rise for any reason. It needs an alternative and quickly
- motoring has for many years been seen as progress. Real progress is measured via how sustainably an industry or practice is - as it stands motoring cannot reflect progress on the grounds of space needed, environmental impact, casualty rates risk factor, and the sheer consumption it requires that seems exponential to that which we can provide.
 

downfader

extimus uero philosophus
Location
'ampsheeeer
Roads existed long before cars, they'll exist when our current car-reliance dissipates. They say to work out the real cost of fuel, drive your car 5 miles, then push it home. That's the real cost. We're unnaturally cossetted from the real cost of motoring because the externalities are, as you say, difficult to quantify, but as long as almost half of all urban car journeys are less than two miles long it's hard to see how the consequent sedentary lifestyle helps anyone. At school in the seventies we looked askance on any schoolchild driven to school, the bike sheds were crammed. Now most kids travel to school in a car (because the roads are so dangerous!). Madness.

I think even economists have come to accept that externalities ARE important. For a long time they were considered a nuisance to be ignored, but the more the economy is scientifically scrutinised the better, and the more the money men realise that externalities can destroy business, destroy jobs and certainly destroy the ability to make money.
 

Recycler

Well-Known Member
Roads existed long before cars, they'll exist when our current car-reliance dissipates. They say to work out the real cost of fuel, drive your car 5 miles, then push it home. That's the real cost. We're unnaturally cossetted from the real cost of motoring because the externalities are, as you say, difficult to quantify, but as long as almost half of all urban car journeys are less than two miles long it's hard to see how the consequent sedentary lifestyle helps anyone. At school in the seventies we looked askance on any schoolchild driven to school, the bike sheds were crammed. Now most kids travel to school in a car (because the roads are so dangerous!). Madness.

Of course it's madness, but we can't change it and we will be wasting our time trying to do so. All we can try to do is to make it better for ourselves. Do that and hopefully more people will turn to bikes which will make it better still.
We can only make it better by winning people over rather than confronting them on everything.
 

Matthew_T

"Young and Ex-whippet"
Werent cyclists the first ones to actually get roads paved? If that is true then motor vehicles should be paying to use our roads.
So the real arguement should be:
"You dont pay road tax"
"Because only you need to pay for the priviledge of using them, I on the other hand introduced them therefore I dont need to pay"
 
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