Seat high enough?

[aJohnson]

Hi, I'm just curious as to if my seat is high enough up, I've took a picture of my knee when I'm clipped in the pedal and at the bottom, is the knee to bent and will I have to raise the seat post or does it look ok?

 

[Paul_Smith SRCC]

I have posted this before but worth repeating here, there are many different things that contribute to the position that includes saddle height of course, here is the method I use, much of which I have used for over thirty years as a club rider and over twenty working in specialist cycle shops. The points I mentioned below contribute to part of the process, fully respect that others may well use a different way to set up their position.

In response to your question you are looking to have a knee bend ideally around 30 degrees when the crank is inline with the seat tube. Not an easy measurement to make unless you have the correct equipment to measure the angle of course, we would make sure the riders foot is in the neutral position, normally very slightly heel up. A good starting point I have used before I start to measure the knee bend at 30 degrees is as others have mentioned, in stocking feet heel on the pedal at 6 O'clock and leg should be near straight, a bend of the knee will lift heel off the pedal, of course someone who has size 14 feet will then result in a knee bend when cycling very different to someone who has size 8, so this is used just as a starting point.

A lot can effect that 30 degree bend of course, saddle set back for example, with cranks horizontal, foot/ankle in neutral position, if cleats are positioned correctly I drop a plumb from the knee and it just touches pedal axle. Note this can change on different bikes, a low profile time trial or track pursuit rider may look for a position further over the bottom bracket for example.

When I mention "foot/ankle in neutral position" by this I mean the ankling when riding at 60%, or the point when you stop wanting to hold a conversation while riding. Most riders pedaling action and ankling will alter when they trying harder, perhaps a racing effort at speed on the drops, it will differ again when climbing, not only due to the effort but the riders position on the saddle at those times, when climbing a mountain pass it is common to sit back further on the saddle with heel down pedal action for example. If the position is correct the ankling should be in this neutral position at 60% effort, that way the rider can cope with the changes as their style and effort alters.

This above pic shows how the 30 degrees knee bend can be measured.

You also need to make sure your foot is correctly positioned on the pedal, neither to far forward or back. Note where your big and little toe joints are, you can mark the shoe temporarily which helps, the pedal axle centre line should be midway between the two when the foot is on the pedal, this will naturally effect all the above so worth taking note and adjusting if necessary.

If you use clipless pedals also make sure the cleats are correctly positioned, many simply fit the cleat central and let the float allow the foot to move to the natural position, yet this is quite easy to get much more accurate. For forward or backward position use the pedal center line as mentioned above, to angle the cleat sit on a table and dangle legs over the edge, lean forward to replicate riding position and note angle of feet, this is because as you lean forward the angle of most riders feet will alter inwards. You can even allow for how wide your stance is, a petite rider using a triple chain set will have the cleats set towards the outside edge of the shoe where as a larger rider with wider stance may set theirs opposite to that, especially if using a single chain set with narrower Q Factor.

With the introduction of modern shoes, insoles and shims some go even further, you can now allow for Varus/Valgus fore foot.

A Varus forefoot simply means that the fore foot is not flat, but raises slightly towards the big toe, infact the majority of us do not have a flat forefoot; Valgus is the opposite of the above and far less common.

Specialized BG shoes (so not the trainer styles) have varus wedge built into the outer sole to allow for this. BG shoes for me reduced knee twitch towards the top tube at the top of my pedal stroke, with a flat sole I found that it did just that as my foot pushed back down on the sole, effectively as my fore foot was unsupported it collapsed down onto the flat sole as I started to push down over the top of the pedal stroke and my knee would twitch towards the top tube as it did so, with the support of a varus wedge this was all but eliminated, I also used a different insole to allow for the fact that I have standard arches, most shoes, Speciazlied BG included, normally have to come by default with insoles that are set up for flatter arches than I and indeed most of us actually have.

If required you can use shims in other brands of cycling shoes to support a Varus or Valgus forefoot, care is needed to make sure you use the correct type of Shim of course, that must relate to both the type of shoe and forefoot.

There is a quite a simple straight forward way check what type of forefoot you have, all you need is a friend, straight edge and a chair; simply kneel on the chair with feet dangling over the end, making sure knees are level, ask a friend to place a ruler/straight edge accross the forefoot and it is then easy enough to see, after which it is then easy to work out which shim, if any, is required.

Picture shows a Varus Forefoot


It was the combination of both supporting the arch and forefoot that helped me, the changes were only small, under 2mm infact, but 2mm for 60-80 revs a minute over a longer ride adds up. I confess apart from a few knee twinges at the end of a long tour I never really had problems before, although this is something I could do, so I did! As well as helping to reduce the knee twitch I also found that the connection between foot and pedal was more solid and stable and for me it feels more efficient as a result; not so much that it makes a headwind feel like a tail wind that's for sure, but it does feel better than it did.

I repeat, the points I mentioned above are what I use, much of which I have done for long time; fully respect that others may well use a different way to set up their position. Many will no doubt be able to apply a different theory to each of the points I have made and justify why their theory is more suitable, if it works for them that’s fine; by the same token I and many others have also found the method I have described successful.

Worth noting that your position will evolve as you will yourself as a rider

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

 

[Garz]

Great piece that Paul!

 

[aJohnson]

Thanks very much Paul

 

[02GF74]

protractors, plumb bobs, assistants, pythagoras ?!?!?!?!?!?

the simpler method I use it to put crank in line with seat tube and place heel when wearing cycling shoes on the pedal, then adjust the seat to the leg is straight.

when foot is in correct position on pedal, leg should have a small bit of bend - it should not be locked out.


works for me.

 

[Marin Maniac]

Great bit of info from Paul. I've been struggling recently with a sore knee after switching to SPD-SL's and messing about with the cleat position.

After setting the cleats so you feet assume your natural gait on the pedal, its just a case of fine tuning from there to what feels natural for you.

I set the seat post as already mentioned in this thread, and found that I had to lower it so I was't straining the ligaments around my knee.

I might explore the fore foot thing as it makes sense to get your knee and associated joints making their natural range of movements asa much as possible when you put it into the context that Paul did.

 

[Garz]

I might explore the fore foot thing as it makes sense to get your knee and associated joints making their natural range of movements asa much as possible when you put it into the context that Paul did.

This is interesting me too as now I have studied my feet they do sit completely different to perfect flat which must make a difference over long rides.

Do you just buy the right sized shim, how does this stay planted in the shoe?

 

[Paul_Smith SRCC]

protractors, plumb bobs, assistants, pythagoras ?!?!?!?!?!?

the simpler method I use it to put crank in line with seat tube and place heel when wearing cycling shoes on the pedal, then adjust the seat to the leg is straight.

when foot is in correct position on pedal, leg should have a small bit of bend - it should not be locked out.


works for me.

Indeed, this was why I stated "...a good starting point I have used before I start to measure the knee bend at 30 degrees is as others have mentioned, in stocking feet heel on the pedal at 6 O'clock and leg should be near straight, a bend of the knee will lift heel off the pedal, of course someone who has size 14 feet will then result in a knee bend when cycling very different to someone who has size 8, so this is used just as a starting point"

For many this is as close as they get to setting up their position and they leave it just like that, it is however possible to fine tune it further, takes time and a bit of effort of course but many do find it worthwhile.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

 

[yello]

After setting the cleats so you feet assume your natural gait on the pedal, its just a case of fine tuning from there to what feels natural for you.

Pretty much, yes.

How much float have you? (That is, can you twist your foot when clipped in.)

I found this a useful read ---> www.cptips.com/knee.htm <---- for knee pain etc

I've messed around a fair bit with fore-aft cleat position and I can't say that it made much difference to me. I simply got used to the change in position and their was no problems as a result. Some folk aren't so lucky.

Take everything you read as suggestions only and be prepared to play.

 

[Paul_Smith SRCC]

This is interesting me too as now I have studied my feet they do sit completely different to perfect flat which must make a difference over long rides.

Do you just buy the right sized shim, how does this stay planted in the shoe?

If only one forefoot is needs a Shim then yes just fit the one, they hold in place under the footbed.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

 

[Garz]

As in remove the inner sole, insert shim (no glue?) and insert inner sole again?

 

[Paul_Smith SRCC]

As in remove the inner sole, insert shim (no glue?) and insert inner sole again?

Yes, exactly that, you can cut them down if needbe as they are designed for Specialized shoes that can have a wide toe box

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

 

[Marin Maniac]

Where can one purchase the shims foor cycling shoes?

 

[Paul_Smith SRCC]

Where can one purchase the shims foor cycling shoes?

Available from your local Specialized dealer.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

 

[Marin Maniac]

So how much Paul?