Should I have my dog put down?

[hobbitonabike]

It REALLY concerns me when people think that dogs are just here for our amusement. I do not think the original OP thinks this by the way. They took on a rescue dog and have bravely admitted that they cannot deal with it. This hasn't been decided on a whim as they have had the dog a year. I think the euthanasia issue was raised in a moment of panic of what to do and they have now discussed returning the dog to the rescue. I am no expert and this is just my opinion. Borders need ALOT of stimulation and exercise. They are highly intelligent and active and deprivibg the dog of these in sufficient amounts has probably added to the situation of the dog being stressed ans unable to deal with its surroundings when certain social issues arise such as visitors. This is a dog that needs alot of help and confidence building and probably a much quieter home. This is not the fault of the OP and they have rightly held their hand up to say "we can't do this". No shame in that at all. It would be no better for the dog if they muddled on. Now the people who have started attacking each other over differencesnof opinion need their heads banging together...honestly we are allowed different opinions!!! I hope that anyone with the opinion that dogs are objects never get one...that is responsible. But yes, some do. I know someone who is on their third dog because they keep buying puppies and when they can't be bothered to put the work in and the dog starts causing trouble then they get rid. And a few months down the line it starts again. Dogs are living creatures with feelings. They have mental needs that have to be met as well as physical and if you're not willing to provide all that they need then getting a dog is not for you. I have no issue wothbpeople who don't like dogs but the phrase 'it's only a dog' drives me crazy!!! My dog is part of my family. He is not treated like a human...he is a dog. But, I try to understand him and what he is telling me in his way. I make the rules and boundaries but that doesn't mean I don't try to understand his language. The dog probably bit because he felt he had no other option. Most dogs are only aggressive when they need to be. Very few go for the kill. He was trying to communicate and probably has been for some time with more subtle behaviour. Anyway...I reckon a bit more understanding before jumping down each others throats wouldn't be a bad thing guys. It's never as simple as black and white!!

 

[dellzeqq]

It REALLY concerns me when people think that dogs are just here for our amusement.

nobody said that........

this is a more subtle thing than you make it out to be. We pour our emotions in to animals. They will oftentimes respond in a way that reflects that pouring - and it is possible that Yello's dog is burdened by hatred or misery directed his way in his younger years. But........we do that for a purpose - our purpose. We seek companionship or validation. And, lest we forget, that is why almost all the dogs and cats in the world are here - they've been adopted by people because they are ductile, manageable and companionable. Take those reasons away and you have - not a lot.

Michael has gone on from this basic transaction to afford dogs rights - as in human rights. Well, I'm sorry, but that's tosh. Human rights are founded on our ability as humans to connect, to make history, to make a culture, to make commitments to each other, to appreciate each other as individual humans. I don't claim any higher beliefs, but it's the capacity of humans to hold higher beliefs that sets them apart. Thinking that animals have that capacity is a kind of vanity - holding up the dog or the cat as a mirror to their own concerns.

When you say that 'the dog felt he had no other option' that implies that the dog considered the options. That's not what dogs do - they react to stimuli within a context formed by association and trust (or lack of trust). They have a strong sense of location but that sense of location is not modulated by culture. The dog doesn't reason with himself. And that, of course, is Yello's problem.

The categorical separation of animals from humans is a rough and ready thing. I'd be the first to acknowledge that humans are capable of cruelty on a scale that few animals could manage. But, however rough and ready, we do think of our fellow human beings as redeemable, as having within them something that is higher, and that's what makes for the different codes by which we behave toward them. It's nowhere near perfect, but it's what we have, which is why we, as a species, feel entitled to dispose of animals as we see fit - we eat pigs who are, by a stretch, more intelligent and more sociable than dogs. Michael may be a vegetarian (unlike most dogs) but the simple, crude fact is that we, as a species, have decided that almost all four-legged animals are there for us. As in for our purposes, however immediate or complex they may be.

I adore dogs. I don't keep one because my life isn't set out in a way that would allow me to take proper care of a dog. But I'm not so daft as to think that 'proper care' is anything more than having the time and will to ensure the dog lives in a way, and does the kind of 'happy dog' stuff that I think is appropriate.

 

[hobbitonabike]

nobody said that........

this is a more subtle thing than you make it out to be. We pour our emotions in to animals. They will oftentimes respond in a way that reflects that pouring - and it is possible that Yello's dog is burdened by hatred or misery directed his way in his younger years. But........we do that for a purpose - our purpose. We seek companionship or validation. And, lest we forget, that is why almost all the dogs and cats in the world are here - they've been adopted by people because they are ductile, manageable and companionable. Take those reasons away and you have - not a lot.

Michael has gone on from this basic transaction to afford dogs rights - as in human rights. Well, I'm sorry, but that's tosh. Human rights are founded on our ability as humans to connect, to make history, to make a culture, to make commitments to each other, to appreciate each other as individual humans. I don't claim any higher beliefs, but it's the capacity of humans to hold higher beliefs that sets them apart. Thinking that animals have that capacity is a kind of vanity - holding up the dog or the cat as a mirror to their own concerns.

When you say that 'the dog felt he had no other option' that implies that the dog considered the options. That's not what dogs do - they react to stimuli within a context formed by association and trust (or lack of trust). They have a strong sense of location but that sense of location is not modulated by culture. The dog doesn't reason with himself. And that, of course, is Yello's problem.

The categorical separation of animals from humans is a rough and ready thing. I'd be the first to acknowledge that humans are capable of cruelty on a scale that few animals could manage. But, however rough and ready, we do think of our fellow human beings as redeemable, as having within them something that is higher, and that's what makes for the different codes by which we behave toward them. It's nowhere near perfect, but it's what we have, which is why we, as a species, feel entitled to dispose of animals as we see fit - we eat pigs who are, by a stretch, more intelligent and more sociable than dogs. Michael may be a vegetarian (unlike most dogs) but the simple, crude fact is that we, as a species, have decided that almost all four-legged animals are there for us. As in for our purposes, however immediate or complex they may be.

I adore dogs. I don't keep one because my life isn't set out in a way that would allow me to take proper care of a dog. But I'm not so daft as to think that 'proper care' is anything more than having the time and will to ensure the dog lives in a way, and does the kind of 'happy dog' stuff that I think is appropriate.

Thank you for a sensible response lol. I agree in part to much that you say but still disagrre on a basic level. I do not attribute my human-ness to dogs though I do understand what you mean. My opinion of what a dog is is just different toours. In most case a dog will react with the minimum of force eg. a growl as a warning before an attack. I am guessing that the dog was in such a state mentally that it panicked and snapped. This is where I agree with you that they do not consider what to do, but simply react. On occasions like humans they can over react. I agree that humans have moulded dogs roles in society to what we want/need and as part of that we should accept the responsibility of this and care for them as they need. In my opinion this is just as much mental health as physical need. I think to treat dogs as humans is wrong as it confuses their nature. But we need to gain a greater understanding of their nature and how their minds work. Many owners do not do this and just revert to 'newspaper behaviour modification' and other traditional methods. We owe it to the species we domesticated to make that effort. I for one do not hold one species over another. We were all put on this planet. Humans are the one who dominated the others but that does not mean that we shouldn't try to live in harmony with others rather than just use them for our ownnpleasure.

 

[lulubel]

IF SOMEONE GETS A DOG THEN THEY CLEARLY DO NOT SHARE MY ATTITUDES

Unfortunately (and I'm saying this sadly rather than trying to provoke an argument), there are plenty of people who do. However, yello is very clearly not one of them.

There are plenty of people (some of whom are cat owners) who have told me I should have my Sam euthanised because I have to plan my life around him and, "It's just a cat." I find it very hard to resist the temptation to punch them. Those that I thought were my friends are certainly not my friends any longer.

 

[lulubel]

Also euthanasia doesn't have to be "completely a last resort", it can often be kindest to do it before other options are attempted in some cases. Take the example of a labrador with arthritis in both hips and both elbows, that is in pain every day: for euthanasia to be the "last resort" in this case you would need to put the animal through 2 hip and 2 elbow replacements with a huge amount of post-operative pain. The same goes for animals on chemotherapy, in SOME cases it is kindest to put the animal to sleep before all treatment options are exhausted so it can go out of the world in relative health rather than after its tumour(s) have got big enough for it to be suffering and have to use the "last resort" of euthanasia

This is exactly how I feel. Thanks for posting this.

 

[lulubel]

Biting chunk out of owners face = clear cut case of aggression in my book.

However, I don't agree with this.

My mother's 4 year old dachshund took a lump out of my face when I was 18 months old, narrowly missing my eye. I'd been left unattended on my parents' bed with him, and the first they knew about it was when I came stumbling to the bathroom with blood running down my face. My grandmother was disgusted with my mother's refusal to "have that evil dog put down," but my mother understood something that she didn't - that Fritz wasn't aggressive.

The first thing she said to me was, "What did you do?"
My response, apparently in a satisfied tone, was, "I dug my elbow in him."

Fritz never bit anyone again, and I obviously learned from that experience because he and I were best friends until his deteriorating health led to him being euthanised at the age of 16.

 

[lulubel]

it's a dog. OK? A dog. It's not a human being, it's a dog. They are different items.

They are. Dogs are so much better than human beings in so many ways. They're non-judgemental, they give unconditional love.

 

[Archie_tect]

True Lullu... but if the dog has been allowed to exert dominance and is the leader, the humans have failed to control their dog's behaviour, though in yello's case it sounds like Sam is so nervous it's first reaction is to defend itself which makes you wonder what it had to endure living with the family who brought it up.

 

[Silver Fox]

Yello, although I don't own a dog I've witnessed the turmoil and upset that comes from making the uncomfortable decisions about having a dog put to sleep. It's horrible and I feel for your current situation.

At the end of the day follow your instinct with what you think is right and think with your head not your heart, as hard as that may be.

People do, understandably, get emotional over issues like this but if I was in your position I'd be paying particular attention to the expert witness on here, Becs.

 

[shouldbeinbed]

@Silver Fox #149

Its an emotional and behavioural decision, not to denigrate vets in any way at all, but I've always (30 years of pet ownership - 3 dogs currently) taken them as 'mechanics' with an understanding and ability to advise on behavioural issues but primarily focused on mending physical damage. I wouldn't criticise what Becs has said but it is one opinion amongst many with equal validity from different viewpoints on Yello's predicament (as well as some clear trolling and plain nastiness).
An example of my concern on Becs attitude is the off at a tangent post going into damaged hips, cancer etc, physically invasive ailments and 'mechanical' repairs. It's not what we're talking about here and is quite a big red herring. You wouldn't leave a psycopath or an abused child to a brain surgeon to mechanically mend. Be careful of bandying around the word expert on the basis of a job in the right ballpark.

@Yello

I'd advocate handing the dog back rather than having it PTS - you don't know if there is someone wanting the challenge if you don't give them the chance. If I have any criticism of you, it is the emotive thread title which has brought in the gawkers as well as people with a genuine contribution to make. I can empathise, my current Galgo (Spanish Greyhound - google them for the sick manner in which they are kept and invariably die at the hands of the spanish farmers) is very deeply disturbed by his experiences before we got him and the level of his problems were not apparent in quarantine so he was a bit of a culture shock when we got him. Luckily his instinct is to cower and run rather than lash out, but a thunderclap making him wrench out of his collar and leg it up the middle of a busy road in a blind panic isn't fun, with potentially terrible consequences for him and the traffic.

It has taken not only the money and behavioural courses to bring him down off the ceiling to a degree where we know what we'll get in any situation, but also an enormous amount of discipline on our part to maintain his routine consistently across all 5 of us to continually reinforce the 'treatment' that he has received. It does sound both from the dog's ongoing behaviour and what you say about your own circumstances and commitment now that this is where you may have slipped up, embedding the progress is utterly essential, alternately the course you wife went on was a load of bunk that didn't work and you should ask for your money back.

 

[MacB]

Unfortunately (and I'm saying this sadly rather than trying to provoke an argument), there are plenty of people who do. However, yello is very clearly not one of them.

and I'll respond to you, as I've given up on Michael, and also respond rather sadly as I don't think what I'm trying to say is hard to grasp. This isn't subjective or a matter of opinion it's a very simple fact, I don't own a dog, never have and never will therefore anyone that has a dog cannot possibly share my attitude because of the simple fact that they have a dog.

That you and Michael are trying to make common ground between my views and the views of some dog owners is farcical. I object to being told I'm part of a problem by trying to make tenuous connections which don't exist.

Dell has put it very well and my attitude towards dogs would be pretty close to his I would just add that there is a wide variety of cages within which we keep animals. But however you are with your dogs don't kid yourself that there isn't a master/servant cage style relationship. Treating your servants/slaves better doesn't change the nature of that relationship.

 

[MichaelM]

and I'll respond to you, as I've given up on Michael, and also respond rather sadly as I don't think what I'm trying to say is hard to grasp. This isn't subjective or a matter of opinion it's a very simple fact, I don't own a dog, never have and never will therefore anyone that has a dog cannot possibly share my attitude because of the simple fact that they have a dog.

And yet there are people who own dogs who mistreat them, trade them as commodity given the the chance, kick them and punch them, and otherwise abuse them. And they justify this with attitude of...

...it's a dog get over it

They are dog owners who share your uncaring attitude.

 

[MacB]

And yet there are people who own dogs who mistreat them, trade them as commodity given the the chance, kick them and punch them, and otherwise abuse them. And they justify this with attitude of...

They are dog owners who share your uncaring attitude.

like a dog with a bone aren't you son, have a think and see if you can grasp the fact that someone may utter the same words as me but that doesn't mean that what lies underneath is the same.

Clearly you class dogs as up there with humans and think of yourself as a kind slavemaster...so in your opinion what makes a good slavemaster?

 

[Crackle]

<Unwatch thread>

 

[shouldbeinbed]

and I'll respond to you, as I've given up on Michael, and also respond rather sadly as I don't think what I'm trying to say is hard to grasp. This isn't subjective or a matter of opinion it's a very simple fact, I don't own a dog, never have and never will therefore anyone that has a dog cannot possibly share my attitude because of the simple fact that they have a dog.

What you are saying isn't hard to grasp in the slightest, its just that it is completely inaccurate. You don't own a dog - got it, you never have nor will - got it.
Therefore you you have no grasp of what a dog is anymore than I know what an Eskimo is, We've seen them at distance but never met nor spent time in that culture.

Sadly there are an awful lot of people EXACTLY like you that do end up with a dog, that doesn't make you part of the problem.

Your very evident dislike of dogs is a positive bonus here, but it does make the naive dog lover the problem when they have same level of inexerience as you but allied to a liking for the notion of dogs and serious misunderstanding that they are toys that will be there to be played with when wanted but happy to switch off & go back in the box under the stairs when the owner wants to play with something else.

This leads people to become frustrated or disengaged that they toy isn't working on their terms and they want rid and they justify it by saying f**k it, its only a dog, to assuage their awful impulse decision and absolve themselves of any blame. SMIDSY for dogs.
Your attitude to dogs ends up at the same point but from a a different place, you bring up slavery & I struggle to see a differnce between you/dogs and the colonialists attitude to their (invariably black african *savages*) slaves: sub human, limited mental or emotional capacity for hurt or rational thought, bright enough to learn rudimentary commands and tasks but not like us, a posession to be disposed of if it gets broken or becomes inconvenient with no emotion attached to the transaction on either side.

I attach far more credence to their emotional and mental faculties but totally get your slavery analogy for me too, there has never been any doubt from the 2 or 4 legs in our house that we have a pecking order and the dogs are at the bottom of it.