bonzobanana
Guru
Something really nice about the gentle curve of the fork blades matching the gentle curve of the seat stays. I've not seen a bike with that before. Overall a very nice looking bike indeed.
Show us your bike as it was originally sold on the wayback machine
- Thread starter bonzobanana
- Start date
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Something really nice about the gentle curve of the fork blades matching the gentle curve of the seat stays. I've not seen a bike with that before. Overall a very nice looking bike indeed.
SkipdiverJohn
Deplorable Brexiteer
- Location
- London
The answer is £475 different, which I do not regard as "not much". I've always regarded Surly as just a successful marketing operation, where they manage to upsell basic steel rigid MTB frames as being heavy duty tourers - at a heavy duty price.
bonzobanana
Guru
I think that is the case with most bike brands. Very few actually manufacture the bikes themselves but rely on factories in Asia so they create a recipe of components and original paintwork and you select whether you want to pay their price for their choices. I've never seen it stated anywhere which factories Surly use I suppose they aren't that huge a brand and smaller brands would have higher overheads per unit so prices would be higher. I've seen that fuji-ta a few years ago were making bikes for Cannondale, Muddyfox & Dunlop (sports direct), Bianchi, Raleigh and loads of other brands and its the same people making all those brands. Yes the components fitted will be different and some will have butted tubes and some could be plain gauge and frame geometry and cosmetic look could vary too. Most consumers determine their purchase choices using perceived quality rather than actual quality and perceived quality is based on marketing, advertising and price point. Is a Italian brand CF frame worth £4k when the same frame is sold in the Chinese market for £400 under the manufacturer's own brand. I would say no but others would happily pay that money for a brand with heritage and that they have seen winning races. I think there is always going to be a divide between those who seek value from their purchases and those that have a high disposable income and more happy to dispose of it. I've seen poor people who get in debt to have the right brand and I've seen rich people who choose value options rather than spend a lot on products. I wouldn't buy a Surly myself unless it was heavily discounted or secondhand because they look relatively poor value for what you get.
SkipdiverJohn
Deplorable Brexiteer
- Location
- London
That pretty much sums it up. Affordability is not the issue for me, but I point blank refuse to buy anything I precieve as poor value for money and/or just based on marketing hype.
When I see long-established brands just buying in far-east stuff and putting their own logos on it, that renders the "heritage" they trade on as fake. It's only real when makers build their own stuff in-house, which of course very few actually do any more.
Thank Bonzo. It’s a very handsome bike, although it was a bit of an anachronism even when new. “Compact” frames were the big new thing at the time and Ti had largely lost the battle to carbon for most high-end bikes so I picked it up new for a relative bargain of £2k with full Ultegra and some decent Reynolds wheels. Litespeed/Lynsky were in a weird place at the time and there were questions around the quality of their output but I guess I got lucky.
bonzobanana
Guru
Also dare I say it but some brands that do make their own frames and forks are actually inferior to the high end frames and forks made in Taiwan. If you get an Italian brand that has its frames made in Taiwan compared to an Italian brand that makes them itself you may find the Taiwanese frame is much better. When Cannondale made frames in the USA they had the joke name of Crack'n'fail because they made them very lightweight and often would fail especially with heavier riders but then they stopped production in the USA and moved production to Asia and quality and safety improved and the Crack'n'fail name has pretty much disappeared. Really if you want the best quality frame for the best value price probably buying a Taiwanese brand frame like Giant or Merida is your best option. Significantly cheaper than the Italian brands and likely significantly better made too but probably low in the bike snob pecking order.
SkipdiverJohn
Deplorable Brexiteer
- Location
- London
What the Taiwanese factories are very good at is turning out a consistent product cheaply. Some of the low end MTB's that all the cycling snobs laugh at, often have well made strong frames, but kitted out with budget mechanicals to keep the price down.
The Treks from the late 90's like the Mountain Track MTB's and Multitrack hybrids, had welded Taiwan-built frames and the bikes are well regarded by those in the know because they have decent components hung on a good frame. Even Raleigh started buying in frames in the last couple of years they assembled in the UK.
What I dislike though is what I regard as dishonest marketing, where the brands trade on their history from when they used to make everything in-house, but keep quiet about all the outsourced manufacturing. Giant I would consider an honest seller. They have always manufactured in the far east right from the outset, and have never had a factory presence over here, so they don't pretend to be a British/European/American maker when in fact they are not. Very decent build quality too, on all the ones I have examined.
The Treks from the late 90's like the Mountain Track MTB's and Multitrack hybrids, had welded Taiwan-built frames and the bikes are well regarded by those in the know because they have decent components hung on a good frame. Even Raleigh started buying in frames in the last couple of years they assembled in the UK.
What I dislike though is what I regard as dishonest marketing, where the brands trade on their history from when they used to make everything in-house, but keep quiet about all the outsourced manufacturing. Giant I would consider an honest seller. They have always manufactured in the far east right from the outset, and have never had a factory presence over here, so they don't pretend to be a British/European/American maker when in fact they are not. Very decent build quality too, on all the ones I have examined.
Sticky Green
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Gosport Hants
This muddy fox was bought as an upgradable fixie, but I ended up making it a 3 speed dutch style bike about 10 years later.
Sticky Green
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Gosport Hants
I found this Falcon Black Diamond in very poor repair and decided to restore it in the Falcon Team Banana colours. Got a bit carried away and added shimano 105 11 speed gear etc.
Sticky Green
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Gosport Hants
This is a Dawes discovery trial I found on Facebook for £20. It was on it's last legs so gave it a freshen up. I also converted it from a 2x6 to a 1x8.
bonzobanana
Guru
I think Giant have an assembly plant in Europe somewhere, possible Poland not sure but its just an assembly plant to avoid EU tariffs, all the bits are from the far east pretty much including frames and forks etc. As far as I understand it the best Giant bikes have their frames and forks made in Taiwan and are fully assembled in Taiwan, then you have the bikes that have frames and forks made to a raw state (Carbon fibre) in mainland China and then finished/painted in Taiwan and then assembled in Taiwan again, then you have the bikes pretty much all made in mainland China. At one point Giant refused to have manufacturing plants in Vietnam, Cambodia etc because they felt by the time the manufacturing skills had been developed the EU would have changed it's tariff rules and changed the countries that were tariff exempt. Contrast that to most European and US brands who regularly keep changing to different factories in Asia to get the best price so quality changes year by year. Admittedly some brands have long term relationships with some Asian factories but those are typically higher end bikes at the bottom and middle of pricing it seems like they change factories all the time.
Just yesterday I saw a Carrera bike box that stated the bike was made in Thailand. So for Halfords brands of recent years you have; Indonesia, Cambodia, mainland China, Taiwan, Thailand, Bangladesh, Tunisia, Vietnam, Czech Republic and quite a few others I'm sure I've forgotten about. I'm not knocking Halfords at all, they are on the ball with regard sourcing bikes and of course being a factory to retailer direct business model means they can do fairly low margins too but how could you actually gauge frame quality there? One year it could be a great factory and another an OK factory.
Richard A Thackeray
Legendary Member
Scanned prints
1989 Marin Pine-Mountain
This must have been the day I bought it, as it still has all of the reflectors
(my Chevette, of the time, in the garage)
I bought it, from the famous Two Wheels Good
(Call Lane, Leeds)
My 1994 Dyna-Tech 755Ti, as bought
The factory spec was Ultegra 8-speed STI
I couldn't get one with the crank-length that I wanted, & the standard 'bars were narrow
So, Ken & Gary (at Kendells, in Castleford; closed earlier this year), with my agreement, got a Campagnolo (Chorus?) chainset
I asked them to get hold of Ritchey stem & seat-pin, as my Pace RC100 had the seat-pin. & it was a nice item)
It also had a pair of Scott Drop-Ins fitted
The saddle was replaced with a Selle-Italia 'Flite' (which is now on my present work-bike; Ribble CGR)
Look PP196(?) pedals
All before I collected it
1989 Marin Pine-Mountain
This must have been the day I bought it, as it still has all of the reflectors
(my Chevette, of the time, in the garage)
I bought it, from the famous Two Wheels Good
(Call Lane, Leeds)
My 1994 Dyna-Tech 755Ti, as bought
The factory spec was Ultegra 8-speed STI
I couldn't get one with the crank-length that I wanted, & the standard 'bars were narrow
So, Ken & Gary (at Kendells, in Castleford; closed earlier this year), with my agreement, got a Campagnolo (Chorus?) chainset
I asked them to get hold of Ritchey stem & seat-pin, as my Pace RC100 had the seat-pin. & it was a nice item)
It also had a pair of Scott Drop-Ins fitted
The saddle was replaced with a Selle-Italia 'Flite' (which is now on my present work-bike; Ribble CGR)
Look PP196(?) pedals
All before I collected it
rogerzilla
Legendary Member
Most of my bikes pre-date the WWW,but brochures have been scanned. Here's the Kilauea.
https://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery...na/Catalogues/Kona+Catalogue+1994/13.jpg.html
Mine is bronze (the US market colour, silver looks boring) and has P2 forks rather than suspension. Vintage suspension is not easy to maintain due to parts availability; a rigid fork doesn't wear out.
https://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery...na/Catalogues/Kona+Catalogue+1994/13.jpg.html
Mine is bronze (the US market colour, silver looks boring) and has P2 forks rather than suspension. Vintage suspension is not easy to maintain due to parts availability; a rigid fork doesn't wear out.
The Way Back Machine doesn't display the pictures of my bike - a 2014 Jamis Aurora - but here's one from the (attached) manufacturer's pdf (any colour you want as long as it's Black Forest - a strange metallic bronze-effect black):
Mine came with a Topeak rack on account of the original custom rack being damaged in transit to the bike shop. Since then, I have replaced the rear rack with a Rack-Time rack, added a Tubus Tara low-rider front rack, replaced the mudguards with SKS Longboards, the pedals with Click'R, the saddle, the handlebars (they're a lot more different than the photos show), stem and spacerless steerer with Velo Orange Grand Cru Course bars, VO stem and spacers with Crane Sakura bell. Front brake (Tektro Oryx) replaced with Tektro CR720 cantis) The front wheel has been swapped out for a dynamo hubbed wheel and dynamo lights & USB charger have been fitted. I've also replaced the rear mech and the cassette for a 11-34T.
Here's a photo after most of the changes:
Mine came with a Topeak rack on account of the original custom rack being damaged in transit to the bike shop. Since then, I have replaced the rear rack with a Rack-Time rack, added a Tubus Tara low-rider front rack, replaced the mudguards with SKS Longboards, the pedals with Click'R, the saddle, the handlebars (they're a lot more different than the photos show), stem and spacerless steerer with Velo Orange Grand Cru Course bars, VO stem and spacers with Crane Sakura bell. Front brake (Tektro Oryx) replaced with Tektro CR720 cantis) The front wheel has been swapped out for a dynamo hubbed wheel and dynamo lights & USB charger have been fitted. I've also replaced the rear mech and the cassette for a 11-34T.
Here's a photo after most of the changes:
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