Sports clubs that make no effort to train novices.

[Dave7]

The out of sight of the boat thing isn't related to diver experience or looking after novices. It is a risk of diving. Could be any combination of skipper error, poor conditions, sheer bad luck, even assuming the divers had inflated their safety sausage. Never happened to me, but it could happen. I take it the skipper would have driven round till they'd been found and called the coastguard if not spotted farily quickly.

Finishing a reef dive off Sharm we found we had 13 divers....when we started with 12. He had been with a boat several miles away, got caught in a current and ended up with us. As you say....it can happen.

 

[Tim Hall]

In my case it was extremely dangerous; the novice was ill-equipped and shouldn't even have been allowed to start the route. If the weather had turned bad or my torch battery had conked out we'd have needed some help.

No spare battery?

 

[Dave7]

How many of these imaginary clubs have you been involved with? I have never experienced anything but friendliness along with help and advice in any clubs I have ever joined.

Thats good....it would be good if all clubs had that attitude.
I "dived" for over 20 years and joined one BSAC club.....once. It was just cliques.
TBF....they did seem to help and nurture those new to diving which is commendable.

 

[Drago]

Is it the job of a sports club to offer training, or is that the job of a trainer?

 

[Profpointy]

Finishing a reef dive off Sharm we found we had 13 divers....when we started with 12. He had been with a boat several miles away, got caught in a current and ended up with us. As you say....it can happen.

Mind you there was that horrific case in Australia where.the (commercial) dive boat f'd off home leaving two divers in the water. Said sivers were trgically lost. It's doubly ironic given Australia and I understand, Australian diving are full of rules often bulshit ones at that. Counting them all back on the boat would seem rather more important !

 

[Spinney]

It feels like it should almost be criminal. After all, the effects of their actions are clear to understand.

There is a duty of care, which can define civil, but not criminal, liability should a situation warranting financial compensation arise.

BMC description of it here.

In the case described on the Aonach Eagach, the abandonment of the party by the two experienced members sounds to me like a breach of the duty of care, unless they had explicitly stated at the beginning of the walk that they would not be accompanying the two newer members.

It's probably quite a woolly area in practice, though.

 

[AndyRM]

Mind you there was that horrific case in Australia where.the (commercial) dive boat f'd off home leaving two divers in the water. Said sivers were trgically lost. It's doubly ironic given Australia and I understand, Australian diving are full of rules often bulshit ones at that. Counting them all back on the boat would seem rather more important !

<sort of on topic>That story was turned into a very good film called Open Water</sort of on topic>

 

[snorri]

I'm not at all keen on any notion of (compulsory?) certificates before being "allowed" do something.

Neither am I, but the actions of the supposedly experienced people in the examples quoted in the OP were not the actions of experienced and responsible people.
It might be better advice not to get yourself into potentially dangerous situations with people you have just met on the day, or the day before, regardless of how experienced they claim to be.

 

[mjr]

Neither am I, but the actions of the supposedly experienced people in the examples quoted in the OP were not the actions of experienced and responsible people.
It might be better advice not to get yourself into potentially dangerous situations with people you have just met on the day, or the day before, regardless of how experienced they claim to be.

So you should take them out to the pub a few times beforehand to get to know them? I can't see that working out well for recruiting novices. Even if you've had basic professional training and somehow avoided getting too used to how the trainer did things which might be different to how a given club does them, it's still going to be a potentially dangerous situation.

Unless someone was an utter utter novice, I'd not be giving someone a kit list - and if they were that novicy shouldn't they have asked? If they turned up just in flip flops and metalica t-shirt I might have made some comment, but if they turned up in an anorak and crampons I'd not really be checking the rest of someone's kit..

I think it's friendly to ask if they're new and if so, to welcome them and ask if they're OK with everything, if you haven't seen them before or even just not seen them for a while.

That said buggering off when some of the party are struggling is a bit off to say the least, unless it's formally agreed to split the group

Amen.

What gets me is club members who do nothing for the club and expect everything back.

Does any club you're in demand that members do loads of work for the club before their first time out? I think it's usual that most people start out taking, then give back more as time goes on.

 

[screenman]

Not all all mjr, but I like to think what can I do for my club rather than the other way around.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I had a friend fall off the Aonach Eagach in winter. Luckily we were roped up, alpine style and I was able to jump the other side of the ridge and hold the fall. He ended up hanging upside down , rope twisted round his leg, over a big drop. It is not a place to take a novice (you have just met) in winter . Any new climbing partner it imperative that you get to understand their abilities and experience. This means a first trip on ground where a mistake is not likely to be fatal and you can get to see each other in action. Did you actually agree beforehand and during the crossing that you would all stick together as two ropes? Why did you only find out they were a novice and ill equipped once on the ridge?. I will always discuss with a partner who is carrying what and the plan before a winter ascent. Descending the Clachaig Gully has not been recommended for years, not even in summer. It has been the scene of many a rescue plus fatality. It is much better to continue down the ridge where it broadens out and provides an easy and safe descent to the road.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

Not all all mjr, but I like to think what can I do for my club rather than the other way around.

@screenman Are you JFK reincarnated?

 

[SpokeyDokey]

I had a friend fall off the Aonach Eagach in winter. Luckily we were roped up, alpine style and I was able to jump the other side of the ridge and hold the fall. He ended up hanging upside down , rope twisted round his leg, over a big drop. It is not a place to take a novice (you have just met) in winter . Any new climbing partner it imperative that you get to understand their abilities and experience. This means a first trip on ground where a mistake is not likely to be fatal and you can get to see each other in action. Did you actually agree beforehand and during the crossing that you would all stick together as two ropes? Why did you only find out they were a novice and ill equipped once on the ridge?. I will always discuss with a partner who is carrying what and the plan before a winter ascent. Descending the Clachaig Gully has not been recommended for years, not even in summer. It has been the scene of many a rescue plus fatality. It is much better to continue down the ridge where it broadens out and provides an easy and safe descent to the road.

I generally agree with that unless they are clearly v.experienced and/or have appropriate qualifications such as MIC/IFMGA.

How a relative novice (and poorly equipped at that) ends up on AE in winter is beyond me.

 

[subaqua]

That is so true, and applies to several of the cycling clubs operating in my locality. It's a subtle process, the one by which new members are allegedly 'welcome' but then sidled out with tiny bits of cold-shouldering when they turn up.

This is very similar to several cycling clubs I have joined in the past. very very snooty and cliquey

and a few dive clubs I have had misfortune to join.

Current Dive club is all welcoming .

it can hap[pen when the coxn isnt paying attention . I got swept out to sea when an aged Coxn missed my DSMB and didn't take account of the dive plan. and me and my student ( not a minor thankfully and not a novice) not being on surface after 30 minutes. thats in current club at end of august . my survival instincts and training kicked in and we aimed for a Cardinal marker buoy where we used the sea to keep us safe . he found us after another 30 minutes ... he still coxes but always has a second on the boat with him

 

[snorri]

So you should take them out to the pub a few times beforehand to get to know them?

No, I didn't suggest such a thing.