SRAM 12 speed set up - chain skipping

[silva]

OK thanks; as I suspected. I am staying with 12 speed
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B071G9Y74V
and the XX1 chain I already have
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08B2QYB48
And a new £15 SRAM 32T front gear which looks exactly like my existing one.

Re the link (on the old chain, which recently started skipping) it does have an arrow and it pointed backwards, so I went to turn it around and found the other half is the same part so no way to have both halves pointing forward It also looks totally symmetrical. This chain was fitted by a bike shop. The skipping is not at all regular (like it was when I put the new XX1 chain on the other day) but happens maybe every 10 revs of the crank.
View attachment 806966

Please, no comments about age. If you eat quarterpounders, regular fries and strawberry shakes, like half the population, you won't be walking at 60+ let alone riding a bike! This bike is fine for me. BTW, I use the bottom 4 pretty evenly and #7 up a very steep short bit. I know 60+ and 70+ guys who will thrash most others.

Going to watch some videos on how to get the cassette off... needs special torx drivers with a hole in the middle. YT just have to be different.

I think the reason for that arrow stamped on the connection link has to do with safety rather than drivetrain operation / skipping - if that connection link hits something (= bang coming in from the running direction), the other pin, that doesn't sit in a sleeve, and has a large riveting, so stronger connection, will act as a shield.
If the bike shop put it like that, well, rather poor or no thinking involved, or, of course, We Don't Really Care, is also an explanation.

 

[chriswoody]

I think the reason for that arrow stamped on the connection link has to do with safety rather than drivetrain operation / skipping

Nope, if it's oriented the wrong way, then the chain skips, nothing to do with safety and all to do with the shape of the link itself. How do I know? because I made that mistake myself.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/what-have-you-fettled-today.87079/post-7145048

I fitted a new 12 speed chain to an old NX Eagle 12 speed cassette and the chain skipped on the smallest cog. After checking everything and doing some research I discovered that I'd put the quick link round the wrong way, after I changed it round silky smooth operation resumed. I've not made that mistake again and always check the orientation of the arrow.

 

[cyberknight]

If you dont need the easiest gears consider getting a cassette with a smaller spread of gears ? i think you have a 10-50 spread atm ?

 

[silva]

Nope, if it's oriented the wrong way, then the chain skips, nothing to do with safety and all to do with the shape of the link itself. How do I know? because I made that mistake myself.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/what-have-you-fettled-today.87079/post-7145048

I fitted a new 12 speed chain to an old NX Eagle 12 speed cassette and the chain skipped on the smallest cog. After checking everything and doing some research I discovered that I'd put the quick link round the wrong way, after I changed it round silky smooth operation resumed. I've not made that mistake again and always check the orientation of the arrow.

My comment was based on the shape of the link on the shown picture, I made a thought based on what I saw.

Ex. the quicklink type of connection link assembly (not the one here) has one plate with 2 pens riveted in it, with the other plate loose.
After the first part is put in place, the loose plate is shifted over the protruding pen ends, and its position is then secured with a third part, a clip, which has an open end, shaped alike a clamp. It's forced open a little, to allow going over the pens sleeve, then veers back into the sleeve (there is a dedicated tool for it).
Due to that open end, for the safety reason I describe, it's given a direction.
Putting it wrong won't cause drivetrain problems / skipping, but if the clip rubs something (clearance voided or whatever cause), the clip easily gives, allowing that disaster scenario, and in any case, good luck finding it back, and if not, walking time.
This one here could have a similar reason for a mounting direction.

I now searched for "quicklink orientation" and a first one was this, which looks like the one on the here shown picture:
https://brainybiker.com/archives/19329

FAQ: Why is the direction of the quick link so important?​

The direction of the quick link ensures that the connection is reinforced during normal pedaling. If the link is installed in the wrong direction, it can come undone, especially if it’s worn. When that happens the rider will lose the chain. The result could include an unpredictable accident.

... which confirms my thought, and denies your Nope.

 

[chriswoody]

Putting it wrong won't cause drivetrain problems / skipping

So your saying I'm lying?

You've never owned or ridden a bike with a SRAM 1x drivetrain and yet you say you know better than me?

I installed my quicklink the wrong way round, I rode like that for at least a hundred kilometres, I had lots of skipping and shifting issues. I discovered my mistake and when I corrected it all of the issues went away and the drivetrain was smooth and quiet.

It is a fact that putting the quicklink round the wrong way will cause issues and skipping on SRAM Eagle drivetrains.

 

[Webbo2]

So your saying I'm lying?

You've never owned or ridden a bike with a SRAM 1x drivetrain and yet you say you know better than me?

I installed my quicklink the wrong way round, I rode like that for at least a hundred kilometres, I had lots of skipping and shifting issues. I discovered my mistake and when I corrected it all of the issues went away and the drivetrain was smooth and quiet.

It is a fact that putting the quicklink round the wrong way will cause issues and skipping on SRAM Eagle drivetrains.

But did you grind down the sprockets once you’d fitted your SRAM quick link to your motor bike chain.😉🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[silva]

But did you grind down the sprockets once you’d fitted your SRAM quick link to your motor bike chain.😉🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

My by chains (backways on the highway looking for attention) and by table grinder (case steel of rear cog) or manual with file (case alu of chainring) grinded down sprockets do not cause drivetrain problems.
Rather the contrary: they give the rollers of the chain SOOOOO much freedom to disengage, at any chain wear state within its tensioners range, that you should be jealous.

 

[chriswoody]

No, I just supported what I said before

Which if you read my post is patently wrong.

I have direct experience of a chain skipping because the quick link was installed the wrong way round. You keep saying that that is not possible so In your view I must be lying or making things up

 

[silva]

Which if you read my post is patently wrong.

I have direct experience of a chain skipping because the quick link was installed the wrong way round. You keep saying that that is not possible so In your view I must be lying or making things up

No, it was patently right, if the arrow is in the wrong direction, the quicklinks pieces, just like the model with the clip I described, can easily fall apart.
Tthe result being not "lots of skipping and shifting issues", but a sudden total drivetrain failure, putting your safety at risk.
The latter is by far more concerning, don't you agree?

 

[Ajax Bay]

This seems an authoritative source of SRAM chain knowledge:
https://docs.sram.com/en-US/publications/6sfLCOGTn6FE98W8vXLqm0/UM - Chains#hashItem=t-type-transmission

 

[peter-h]

OK; sorry. I didn't refresh the pages correctly across the page breaks.

Is SRAM 12-speed stuff really junk compared to Shimano? Also, on this bike, can one fit Shimano?

I find this 29" bike rides on dirt and rocks much better than my previous 26" bike. It was bought in 2022 when MTB prices were going through the roof due to covid. They crashed soon afterwards but I noticed the manufacturers de-specced the bikes a bit in many cases. Of course 3.5k was a ripoff...

 

[peter-h]

Having put the old chain back on, I get frequent skipping on the smallest gear and much less frequent on the next one up. Moving that link around has not changed this; unsurprisingly since it looks exactly symmetrical.

So suddenly the bike has become hard to ride. So I am going to change the whole lot now (cassette, chain and the front gear). Not sure I have all the tools needed so could be off the road for a while while waiting for stuff to turn up. Is there anyone near Brighton who could help if I get stuck, for some £££?

But I wonder what the cause might be of the old chain suddenly skipping. The only other thing I did was to remove, clean up and replace the two derailleur gears. Their bearings seem ok but I wonder whether a slight wobble (in the upper gear, which directs the chain onto the appropriate cassette gear) might cause chain skipping? I can get new ones; they are not expensive. They have ceramic bearings which don't need lubing.

 

[chriswoody]

Is SRAM 12-speed stuff really junk compared to Shimano?

Cyclists can get really tribal about some things, for example, just look on this forum for any posts about GPS devices and see the arguments about Garmin vs Wahoo. Ajax bay mentions his daughter, it sounds like to me she is a professional rider with very different needs and requirements to me as a leisure rider, so whilst I respect her opinion, it most likely will come from a different place than mine.

Both Shimano and SRAM make fantastic equipment, modern drivetrains are amazing compared to years ago. Whilst I don't have direct experience of modern Shimano components, my impression is Shimano make finely engineered equipment akin to a Swiss Watch, whereas SRAM is a little cruder and simpler, though no less efficient. SRAM, I feel, has also been much more innovative over the last decade or so. They introduced and refined the modern 1x drivetrains, created the UDH (Universal Derailleur Hanger) and open sourced it so any one, including Shimano, could use it, created the first dedicated Gravel bike drivetrain in 2016 and a whole bunch of other stuff. It's no secret that I favour SRAM over Shimano, but I wouldn't say one is superior to the other, just different.

One of the big draws of SRAM for me, is it's simpler engineering. SRAM themselves produce fantastic tech documents, with clear crisp photographs and text that allow you to work on your components. The downside though is the fact that they won't supply the spares. Take their brifters for example, below is a photo of my SRAM Rival one brifter in pieces.

See the red piece of plastic? A common weak point on these brifters, easy to access and replace, however SRAM refuse to sell it as a spare part. Here I was modifying the brifter and changing the 11 speed ratchet for a custom made 12 speed one as well us upgrading the plastic part to an aluminium one. The parts were supplied by Ratio Technology who make and supply a range of parts for SRAM drivetrains and this level of customisation and fettling is impossible with Shimano because of the complexity of their parts.

on this bike, can one fit Shimano?

Simple answer, no. Not without changing your rear wheel to one with a Shimano compatible hub and then spend a huge amount of money on buying all the drivetrain parts.

clean up and replace the two derailleur gears

Do you mean the pulley wheels in the rear derailleur? This is new information. The pulley wheels are directional, they are only designed to work one way round. This page from the relevant tech doc should explain what I mean, make sure the U and L letter are facing the correct way. again incorrect orientation will mess up the smooth running of the drivetrain.

 

[peter-h]

Gosh thanks for that. To me they looked exactly symmetrical. I did get the little washers the right way round; they have a tiny flange on them.

That's another thing with this SRAM 12 speed stuff. In the past I used to just buy these wheels on Ebay etc, fit them and everything worked. But that wasn't 12 speed. That said, I cannot see any misalignment on the position of the upper one, versus the cassette.

 

[chriswoody]

Don't worry it's caught me out before as well. It's because of the 1x system, the teeth are specially shaped to engage really tightly with the chain and prevent it from jumping off the chainring as well as make the shifting more precise.

It could also be worth investing in a B Gap alignment tool. They are only a couple of quid and make checking the B Gap an absolute doddle as well as piece of mind that that is not an issue. On my mountain bike I'd never touched the B Screw on the Derailleur since the bike was bought brand new. Then a couple of years into ownership it was being a bit temperamental. Whilst all the alignment looked perfect to the eye, when I checked it with the B Gap tool, I found it was actually out of alignment. A quick tweak and all was well again.

All these things are only small issues, but easy to check and when you are aware of them it's easy to keep on top of.