Stealth tax

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Norm

Guest
MacB, in the same way that terrorists are one step ahead of the body scanners, those who want to speed will quickly find ways (such as signal blockers or a reflective shield on their screens) to get round it, leaving the vast majority to have spent thousands upgrading their car to do what they do anyway.

GPS and speed-limiting transmitters are relatively new technology and I don't like the idea of hard-wiring cars (which can last for decades) to fit with the latest fashion.

And yes, I do see this as a fashion thing, as the technology will be better and smaller and cheaper in 2 years.

Besides, it would do nothing to Johnny Foreigner, driving around impervious to the road laws because he's come over here in his own car, taking our jobs, sleeping with our women.... I should probably stop now.
 

Shorinjidude

Über Member
Read through most of this thread; was tempted to link it to the Londonbikers forum for some less cycle oriented views (might still)

Rather than to inflame but to add an extra zing, presuming all this cool tech is available and affordable, how do you all feel when your fined for breaking the 20mph speed limit soon to be sensibly imposed across towns and cities? I already break this sometimes as 20 mph limits are around in some areas of London. TBH I'm too happy to be hitting twenty to take much notice but the level of exersion does lesson my concentration...

When I used to ride my Suzuki I spent some time working in Hertfordshire, on my route was a long 50 mph duel carriageway. As you tootled along you would encounter a hill, just as you topped the peak you would be hit by the 30mph sign which you could see forced drivers and bikers alike to slam on the breaks - bad design, stealth tax revenue gainer or just not 'playing cricket'? I'm not sure but it was certainly dangerous positioning.

Like all these arguements a little research will find equally convincing, fully backed up statistics from the other side. The government a couple of years ago was testing satalite systems for limiters on motorbikes. Conclusion for two wheeled vehicles was it was bloody dangerous! NSS...
 

Cab

New Member
Location
Cambridge
Shorinjidude said:
Rather than to inflame but to add an extra zing, presuming all this cool tech is available and affordable, how do you all feel when your fined for breaking the 20mph speed limit soon to be sensibly imposed across towns and cities?

Speed limits aren't applicable to bicycles. So I'll be highly amused if someone tries to fine me for riding at 20mph.
 

MacB

Lover of things that come in 3's
Norm said:
MacB, in the same way that terrorists are one step ahead of the body scanners, those who want to speed will quickly find ways (such as signal blockers or a reflective shield on their screens) to get round it, leaving the vast majority to have spent thousands upgrading their car to do what they do anyway.

GPS and speed-limiting transmitters are relatively new technology and I don't like the idea of hard-wiring cars (which can last for decades) to fit with the latest fashion.

And yes, I do see this as a fashion thing, as the technology will be better and smaller and cheaper in 2 years.

Besides, it would do nothing to Johnny Foreigner, driving around impervious to the road laws because he's come over here in his own car, taking our jobs, sleeping with our women.... I should probably stop now.

;)
 

thomas

the tank engine
Location
Woking/Norwich
MacB said:
Lot of assumptions and very short on facts there, explain why it would be so expensive, the technology already exists? Add to new cars and retrofit to old, at car owners expense. You could even insist that the whole thing is manufactured in the uk, there's an idea! So general expense would be fitting of transmitters to speed signs.

Why is it completely impractical and why would, tried and tested technology, be so prone to failure?


The thing is though, I don't want it. It's your suggestion, so you price it :tongue:

As for manufacturing in the UK....outsource where appropriate. As for forcing car owners to subsidise this technology (which I would imagine would cost anywhere between £50-100, or around a daily wage) won't do you any favours. Politically, it wouldn't be touched with a barge pole.

Now, I'm sure these sensor chips would could be affordable, but how many signs are there in the UK? Even at £1 a chip that would be millions upon millions....possibly in just a couple of countys. Heck, even at something like 20p a chip the total cost would still hit millions.

Take into consideration the cost of fitting, or swapping signs, the man power, testing them, blah blah...all adds up. How often would they get vandalised, etc.

Now, you're expecting this. Let's say it only costs a few million pounds (which let's face it, it won't). Now, the Government can only just afford around £2 million for all those anti-drink driving adverts you see....so how are they going to find money to actually implement this technology?

As for this technology being tried and tested....please show some source on that. I don't know any country which has a system like this in place.
 
thomas said:
I guess you've just got to hope that the cctv cameras weren't working properly. A friend's Dad got caught by one a couple of weeks back nicking some goods from a big store

This is the problem with shoplifting offences. Why they can be seen as a tax. I can fully understand why stop on shoplifting is needed when people are buyinthings....but when no one is buying - let us nick.

The same excuses and justification - different offence
 

Davidc

Guru
Location
Somerset UK
hackbike 666 said:
Can't you get done for riding recklessley though?

Don't know if anyone would bother. 20 mph signs are there as a challenge to cyclists. Its a goal to be achieved. It helps spur us on, gets us fitter, and gives us a warm glow inside when the computer says "23.6" in the maximum speed function.

And all without breaking the law.

Unless you're in Richmond Park or on Bournemouth sea front.
 

thomas

the tank engine
Location
Woking/Norwich
Cunobelin said:
The same excuses and justification - different offence

Not really. If reduced speed limits are in place, solely for the benefit of those carrying out the road works, it wouldn't take much to up the speed limit when they're not working. Lots of bad planning in this country in regard to road works.

Completely different to shop lifting. Though, I can appreciate the CCTV point. I wasn't justifying either Norm or my friend's Dad speeding....

hackbike 666 said:
Can't you get done for riding recklessley though?

I believe that you'd only get done for it if you caused an accident (such as serious injury, or death to a pedestrian). Or at least that's for the 'furious driving' type cycle charge.

Davidc said:
Unless you're in Richmond Park or on Bournemouth sea front.

I got told off by someone in my cycle club for going too fast around Richmond park....not because we were probably doing more than 15mph...just because he was struggling to keep up :biggrin:. I was at the front and worried that I wasn't going fast enough for the group .... whooops :tongue:
 

MacB

Lover of things that come in 3's
thomas said:
Now, I'm sure these sensor chips would could be affordable, but how many signs are there in the UK? Even at £1 a chip that would be millions upon millions....possibly in just a couple of countys. Heck, even at something like 20p a chip the total cost would still hit millions.

Take into consideration the cost of fitting, or swapping signs, the man power, testing them, blah blah...all adds up. How often would they get vandalised, etc.

Now, you're expecting this. Let's say it only costs a few million pounds (which let's face it, it won't). Now, the Government can only just afford around £2 million for all those anti-drink driving adverts you see....so how are they going to find money to actually implement this technology?

As for this technology being tried and tested....please show some source on that. I don't know any country which has a system like this in place.

Do you not bother reading what you're responding to? I've already said that transmitters would only be needed for every speed limit change, not every existing speed sign. Think about that for a bit, let it sink in, then try the math again. In car limiters are tried and tested, transmission/receiving devices are tried and tested. The expense would be around marrying the two together and how/where to place the transmitters.
 

thomas

the tank engine
Location
Woking/Norwich
MacB said:
Do you not bother reading what you're responding to? I've already said that transmitters would only be needed for every speed limit change, not every existing speed sign. Think about that for a bit, let it sink in, then try the math again. In car limiters are tried and tested, transmission/receiving devices are tried and tested. The expense would be around marrying the two together and how/where to place the transmitters.


Price it up then if you think it's so possible. As for needing less speed signs, you wouldn't need any. Why do you need to know the speed limit if your car can't go above it? You could just drive for the conditions (more so on higher speed roads).

This use of technology is not tested. Your idea has a number of flaws, getting past the money, the implementation, the maintenance. It would be by passable by those who wanted to by pass it as well as having the problem of foreign cars which would not be 'chipped'.

Anyway, how many times in the UK does the speed limit change? Even if not every "sign", it's still a huge number.

Seriously, as a way to spend money your idea is a poor one.

How do you suggest that this works then? Do the workmen change several miles of limit signs every time they knock on/off? Do we have limit signs with the times alongside, because that brings more problems than it solves? Do we move all heavy plant away from the roadworks and set up temporary escape zones/hard shoulders every time the workmen down tools? Do we re-route the contraflows that take traffic onto the other carriageway twice a day?

Or do we just tell drivers to get over themselves and slow down for a few minutes?

Just have variable speed limits. Simple.
 

MacB

Lover of things that come in 3's
thomas said:
Price it up then if you think it's so possible. As for needing less speed signs, you wouldn't need any. Why do you need to know the speed limit if your car can't go above it? You could just drive for the conditions (more so on higher speed roads).

This use of technology is not tested. Your idea has a number of flaws, getting past the money, the implementation, the maintenance. It would be by passable by those who wanted to by pass it as well as having the problem of foreign cars which would not be 'chipped'.

Anyway, how many times in the UK does the speed limit change? Even if not every "sign", it's still a huge number.

Seriously, as a way to spend money your idea is a poor one.



Just have variable speed limits. Simple.

Pricing, with the No's of vehicles involved, I reckon unit cost, per vehicle, could be around the £150 mark. I would allocate £50 million for the transmitter rollout.

Tried and tested - the specific design isn't tested and I've not claimed it is. The seperate technologies are tested, a speed limiter can be set electronically, via button, in a car. Are you hanging your 'untested' bogeyman on the lack of ability to transmit that signal remotely? The in car setup could even have a dual mode so, in case of localised transmitter failure, it then sets speed based on GPS data it has stored. Or are you going to tell me this is a way out whacky untested idea as well?

Foreign vehicles - need the kit same as everyone else, we drive in France we need to buy a hi viz and red triangle and some spare bulbs(I haven't been for a while so it may be more/less now). Vehicles come here they need to buy an in car kit...simples.

Speed limit changes - have a think about how often this actually happens compared to how many speed signs you see.

People bypassing the technology - yep that'll happen, I don't think an unbreakable law is feasible.

It may be a poor idea but certainly not for the objections you put forward.
 

thomas

the tank engine
Location
Woking/Norwich
MacB said:
Pricing, with the No's of vehicles involved, I reckon unit cost, per vehicle, could be around the £150 mark. I would allocate £50 million for the transmitter rollout.

Tried and tested - the specific design isn't tested and I've not claimed it is. The seperate technologies are tested, a speed limiter can be set electronically, via button, in a car. Are you hanging your 'untested' bogeyman on the lack of ability to transmit that signal remotely? The in car setup could even have a dual mode so, in case of localised transmitter failure, it then sets speed based on GPS data it has stored. Or are you going to tell me this is a way out whacky untested idea as well?

Foreign vehicles - need the kit same as everyone else, we drive in France we need to buy a hi viz and red triangle and some spare bulbs(I haven't been for a while so it may be more/less now). Vehicles come here they need to buy an in car kit...simples.

Speed limit changes - have a think about how often this actually happens compared to how many speed signs you see.

People bypassing the technology - yep that'll happen, I don't think an unbreakable law is feasible.

It may be a poor idea but certainly not for the objections you put forward.

£150 is about half the value of my Mum's car (which is what I used to drive). £150 is over 2 days work for me. Now, with your normal motorist this alone is going to cause a lot of friction.

As for the £50m, that again is a very large sum of money which could be put to much better uses.

My problem with the technology is that, yes, individual elements do work and are around. But when you put them together in a project of this scale any failure is a major one.

As for having to get some hi viz and bulbs to go to France....total cost £3 at my local poundland. Completely different ball park to your scheme.

As for speed limit changes, I'm well aware that there are more signs to remind people than there are changes in speed, but there would still be a very large number of these transmitters. The amount of changes in speed limits doesn't overaly matter if you're saying it would cost £50m.

Like you say, it may be poor idea....so let's not waste £50m+ on it.


I'm sorry, but that doesn't address any of the issues I've listed, and in fact raises more.

What's by far the most simple, the cheapest, the safest and the easiest is for drivers to grow up, realise that a couple of miles of roadworks will add only a few minutes to their journey, and slow down for a bit.

Do the workmen change several miles of limit signs every time they knock on/off?


No need. Variable speed limits.

Do we have limit signs with the times alongside, because that brings more problems than it solves?

How does it? I was thinking more along the lines of electronic signs, which motorways already have.

Do we move all heavy plant away from the roadworks and set up temporary escape zones/hard shoulders every time the workmen down tools?

Errm....how does this make any difference to increasing the speed limit? I wasn't suggesting people drove through the road works.

Do we re-route the contraflows that take traffic onto the other carriageway twice a day?

Actually time the work so it is done efficiently so minimal disruption is caused. Point isn't really relevant to an increased speed limit. Certainly, through parts of unmanned road works keeping the lower speed may be necessary for a period of time.



Ultimately, I don't really have a whole lot of issue with this as it's not really a problem I encounter (other than maybe a couple times a year going back and forth from UNI). I might have more objections if I was commuting every day and my journey was 10 minutes longer, unnecessarily. My point was much more that if someone was driving through empty road works (safe) at 70mph, rather than say 50mph and got finned for it....I can see why they'd think it was a tax (or at least it's being sly). Especially if it looks like the road works are being intentionally delayed.
 

thomas

the tank engine
Location
Woking/Norwich
You haven't offered any response to the question I've asked twice -what's the problem with just slowing down?

If you think properly about what the 'problems' raised are, and the reason that they're looked for, you'll see that the only problem is driver attitude. And a driver with an issue with a couple of miles of 40mph limit on a motorway has an attitude that isn't healthy on the road.

Nothing*. My point waaaaaay back was that I can see why people would be frustrated and possibly call it a tax when road works with reduced speed limits which are in operation rain or shine. Say it added 10 minutes to a journey, which isn't an unreasonable suggestion, for a commuter that's an hour and a half extra a week. That would frustrate me. If with some better planning and some type of system where speed limits can increase through road works when safe, it would be liked by motorists.

I'm merely seeing it from someone else's eyes.

*And no offence, but the first time it seemed rhetorical, and the second time you just made a point without a question.

Like I said, it doesn't bother me as I'm not commuting through that type of thing every day.

Personally, I think this topic is getting a bit silly....and I'm far from helping :biggrin:
 
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