classic33
Leg End Member
Bus/train companies have a pass requirement for mobility scooters.
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/mobility-scooters
https://www.firstbus.co.uk/mobility-scooters-code
TFL e-bike ban
- Thread starter T4tomo
- Start date
Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/mobility-scooters
https://www.firstbus.co.uk/mobility-scooters-code
Jenkins
Legendary Member
- Location
- Felixstowe
How do you tell what size (power/capacity) a battery is just by looking at it?
And don't say they have to have a sticker showing the power output or capacity because, as already noted, it's simple just to get a 'legal' sticker on Ebay.
Which is more dangerous - a fire on an ebike in the open air on a platform or a fire on an ebike in an enclosed train? Theo one at Rayners Lane happened just as the owner was waiting to board a train.
Edit - just seen these points have already been made by others.
TomDW
Well-Known Member
A bit of background to this policy that people discussing should know: The TFL Cycle Policy.
There are already loads of cycle restrictions to summarise. I rarely see bikes on services I use, it's mostly evenings on the Overground if at all. This is not going to stop most people getting to work as they're banned around commuting times.
There are already loads of cycle restrictions to summarise. I rarely see bikes on services I use, it's mostly evenings on the Overground if at all. This is not going to stop most people getting to work as they're banned around commuting times.
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T4tomo
Legendary Member
Should ban Tesla's from LeShuttle!
Brandane
The Costa Clyde rain magnet.
And ALL ferries.
The Luton fire started when a diesel powered vehicle caught fire. Imagine the frustration of the " usual suspects " that it didn't start in an electric vehicle. ( having said that, they'd probably find a way to weave their agenda into the narrative )
Ming the Merciless
There is no mercy
- Location
- Inside my skull
That’s a cover up by he who must not be named.
mjr
Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
- Location
- mostly Norfolk, sometimes Somerset
The updated https://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-conditions-of-carriage.pdf has been published at last. The new rule is a bit strange:
TfL's rule includes "London Overground, Elizabeth line" but those are both subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and that hasn't been updated, so e-bikes are still not listed as "Items only permitted at the discretion of individual Train Companies" or "Items that are not permitted to be carried on passenger trains" and there is no mention of any restrictions on e-bikes on https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/cyclists so those routes might get challenged early on.
Cycling charity "Wheels for Wellbeing" has called on TfL to extend its existing mobility aid permit scheme to e-bikes. TfL Non-Folding e-Bike Ban On Public Transport: WfW Position Statement – https://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/t...n-on-public-transport-wfw-position-statement/
TfL still haven't published their "comprehensive" review so we don't know whether they even considered any of the above before suddenly changing their rules and hindering e-bike users.
So, they have addressed the fire problem that has really happened, by banning e-bikes from platforms, but for some reason, electric scooters and unicycles (those hoverwheel things) are still allowed onto platforms even though they can't be taken on services. That's odd.
TfL's rule includes "London Overground, Elizabeth line" but those are both subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and that hasn't been updated, so e-bikes are still not listed as "Items only permitted at the discretion of individual Train Companies" or "Items that are not permitted to be carried on passenger trains" and there is no mention of any restrictions on e-bikes on https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/cyclists so those routes might get challenged early on.
Cycling charity "Wheels for Wellbeing" has called on TfL to extend its existing mobility aid permit scheme to e-bikes. TfL Non-Folding e-Bike Ban On Public Transport: WfW Position Statement – https://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/t...n-on-public-transport-wfw-position-statement/
TfL still haven't published their "comprehensive" review so we don't know whether they even considered any of the above before suddenly changing their rules and hindering e-bike users.
TomDW
Well-Known Member
E-bike users, how do you sleep at night ?
Record Escooter & Ebike fires in London
Caveat, this is a bit emotive, but I'm just fed up with the no. of illegal bikes/scooters in London. Dangerous to individuals & public because they're going way over 20mph.
Record Escooter & Ebike fires in London
Caveat, this is a bit emotive, but I'm just fed up with the no. of illegal bikes/scooters in London. Dangerous to individuals & public because they're going way over 20mph.
mjr
Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
- Location
- mostly Norfolk, sometimes Somerset
Need to be recorded to fix the problem. Not needed to continue the witchhunt. Organisations led by old farts in limos are fine with demonising all e-bikes.
ktmbiker58
Senior Member
The big issue that won't get addressed is ensuring e-bikes/e-bike products that come into the UK are checked for compliance with a set of standards that are in place to ensure the safety of these things.
The following is for the geeks/nerds :-
AS a retired electronics engineer (nerd) I have been asked by a couple of local shops to 'have a look' at a number of batteries from e-bikes/e-scooters, the ones I investigated used the standard 18650 lithium cell (often used in vape devices) which is a nominal 3.6V 3Ahr cell, these are arranged with groups of typically 5 cells in parallel (to give 15Ahr) and 10 groups in series to give 36V. (that would give a 540Whr battery)
Since the state of charge of the cells tends to diverge with use and the passage of time there should be a battery management system (BMS) that keeps the cells balanced. On some systems, particularly those with high charge rates, this requires the BMS to tell the charger to reduce the charging current so that it can perform a balance which is why it is essential to use the charger designed for the battery pack and not some generic item. The BMS circuitry is enclosed with the cells in the battery case as it requires connections to every group of cells in the series chain.
The regulations for transporting these batteries (UN38.3) includes a rigorous set of tests including; extreme temperature, low pressure, vibration, shock, crushing, short circuiting.
The reputable lithium cell manufacturers take safety very seriously, I saw a test procedure by a lithium cell manufacturer that including shooting it without it catching fire!
What I found in the battery packs that I looked at basically boiled down to poor design and construction, lack of any BMS in one pack, total lack of basic electrical safety devices such as over current cutout, no thermal monitoring and unbranded cells. I cannot believe these would've satisfied the regulations for transporting.
In contrast there was one pack that I repaired a broken connector on (broken by the user) that used Panasonic cells, had a BMS installed that included temperature sensors, had a built in current monitor and isolator and was beautifully engineered.
In theory an e-bike battery designed to meet the current safety requirements should be just as safe as any of the myriad of devices using lithium cells - the problem is no one is going to bother checking the stuff that is imported and users often aren't aware of how dangerous it can be to use an aftermarket charger.
End of nerd session!
The following is for the geeks/nerds :-
AS a retired electronics engineer (nerd) I have been asked by a couple of local shops to 'have a look' at a number of batteries from e-bikes/e-scooters, the ones I investigated used the standard 18650 lithium cell (often used in vape devices) which is a nominal 3.6V 3Ahr cell, these are arranged with groups of typically 5 cells in parallel (to give 15Ahr) and 10 groups in series to give 36V. (that would give a 540Whr battery)
Since the state of charge of the cells tends to diverge with use and the passage of time there should be a battery management system (BMS) that keeps the cells balanced. On some systems, particularly those with high charge rates, this requires the BMS to tell the charger to reduce the charging current so that it can perform a balance which is why it is essential to use the charger designed for the battery pack and not some generic item. The BMS circuitry is enclosed with the cells in the battery case as it requires connections to every group of cells in the series chain.
The regulations for transporting these batteries (UN38.3) includes a rigorous set of tests including; extreme temperature, low pressure, vibration, shock, crushing, short circuiting.
The reputable lithium cell manufacturers take safety very seriously, I saw a test procedure by a lithium cell manufacturer that including shooting it without it catching fire!
What I found in the battery packs that I looked at basically boiled down to poor design and construction, lack of any BMS in one pack, total lack of basic electrical safety devices such as over current cutout, no thermal monitoring and unbranded cells. I cannot believe these would've satisfied the regulations for transporting.
In contrast there was one pack that I repaired a broken connector on (broken by the user) that used Panasonic cells, had a BMS installed that included temperature sensors, had a built in current monitor and isolator and was beautifully engineered.
In theory an e-bike battery designed to meet the current safety requirements should be just as safe as any of the myriad of devices using lithium cells - the problem is no one is going to bother checking the stuff that is imported and users often aren't aware of how dangerous it can be to use an aftermarket charger.
End of nerd session!
- Location
- The TerrorVortex
By not using illegal ebikes.
And by not being judgemental about things I know little about. I'm fed up with simplistic generalisation about ebikes.
dutchguylivingintheuk
Über Member
Nope they can just give Virgin Atlantic, British Airways or just the Iata a call and they will tell them how they go about if an wheel chair battery is approved or not. That is the same principle wheel chair batteries are no more of an risk then ebike batteries at least on paper.
And people flouting those rules are the British Transport Police's job to act upon.
You can print them at home if you have the correct sticker paper, but we are now discussing problems that should be the responsability of the British Transport police, if they make clear rules ''has to have sticker a and schielded on way X or Y'' it's up to the transport police to enforce them. No they just say ''nah can't do, just ban all'' and the Bosses at Tfl and network rail saved themselves money they needed to spend on checks, if they would have made proper rules.
this is just an lazy cop-out. If they make clear rules and then stop every ebike every once in a while and check of those batteries not have just a downloaded sticker on but are within the rules those printing stickers at home or via ebay will very quickly find out that's not how it works.
Leaving people that need an ebike with their options instead of the situation now.
brommieinkorea
Senior Member
- Location
- 'Merica darnit
As much as I dislike "ebikes" I still can not get behind a rule that makes no sense. How exactly are folding "ebikes" safer than non- folding ones? If you ban the weird one wheeled things, what's to stop the guy putting it in a bag and just walking on with it? Same for the scooters too. Someone also mentioned how restricted regular non-folding bike travel on trains is already, seems that the only bike this would apply to already caught fire. Maybe that guy found another just like it ?
dicko
Legendary Member
- Location
- Derbyshire
If I removed my Cytronex battery from my cycle and put the battery in my backpack you wouldn’t know my bike was an e-bike.
