The City of London Police.......

[srw]

In the City of London bikes tend to be the fastest things on the road. I stand by my assertion that the offences I mentioned very rarely result in anything other than minor injury - just like cycle RLJs. I'm giving you an argument which many people will see as reasonable, and all you can do is bluster. Where's your serious response to my serious argument? If you want to do road-safety campaigning you need to understand all the issues and be able to respond to all the arguments, including the most common ones.

Cab, I almost never see a car or a motorised vehicle jump a red light. When it happens, it tends to happen at considerably less than walking pace, and very rarely impinges on the pedestrian crossing. I see bikes jumping red lights at every red light I stop at. Most go through without moderating their speed - say at 15mph - and go straight through the pedestrian crossing. If it's a choice between being hit by a car at considerably less than walking pace or a bike at 15mph I know which one I'd choose. And it's not the bike.

I come back to my previous challenge - what are the stats for the COLP targetting motorised traffic? If, as I suspect, they are fairly active in that regard your whole conspiracy theory falls over. It's relatively well accepted that tackling minor misdemeanors - what makes people upset - to a very high degree results in a generally better quality of life.

 

[spindrift]

Good points srw.

Note: I don't condone RLJing. I understand it, think the risks are over stated, and it is over policed.

 

[Cab]

In the City of London bikes tend to be the fastest things on the road. I stand by my assertion that the offences I mentioned very rarely result in anything other than minor injury - just like cycle RLJs. I'm giving you an argument which many people will see as reasonable, and all you can do is bluster. Where's your serious response to my serious argument? If you want to do road-safety campaigning you need to understand all the issues and be able to respond to all the arguments, including the most common ones.

Serious argument? Such as...

Cab, I almost never see a car or a motorised vehicle jump a red light.

Then you're not looking closely enough. Go watch. Stats show that when surveyed more than one in ten motorised vehicles go through red lights, and one in five busses.

When it happens, it tends to happen at considerably less than walking pace, and very rarely impinges on the pedestrian crossing.

Also incorrect; when it happens it tends to be faster than normal speed, as the motorist accelerates to get through before traffic comes the other way. And that causes accidents; I seem to recall a figure from the early noughties where 130 were killed htat way in one year in the West Midlands alone.

I see bikes jumping red lights at every red light I stop at. Most go through without moderating their speed - say at 15mph - and go straight through the pedestrian crossing. If it's a choice between being hit by a car at considerably less than walking pace or a bike at 15mph I know which one I'd choose. And it's not the bike.

Then you're choosing the one which, statistically, is more likely to kill you. Unless you feel that you're somehow immune to death by massive metal impact, and that the stats don't apply to you.

You're basing your argument on being personally offended by cyclists RLJing, not on the actual risk that RLJing cyclists pose.

 

[spindrift]

SRW, more pedestrians are killed on zebra crossings by cars than are killed by cyclists in all circumstances in five years or summat.

 

[BentMikey]

Yes, srw is wrong and ignorant on the number of motor vehicles that go through red lights. It's blinking scary seeing a bendy bus doing it at speed. 1 in 5 bus drivers were found to have gone through lights more than 3 seconds after they turned to red, and 1 in 10 car drivers in one particular study, by the RAC IIRC.

From personal experience I'm not surprised by those numbers.

 

[domtyler]

In the City of London bikes tend to be the fastest things on the road. I stand by my assertion that the offences I mentioned very rarely result in anything other than minor injury - just like cycle RLJs. I'm giving you an argument which many people will see as reasonable, and all you can do is bluster. Where's your serious response to my serious argument? If you want to do road-safety campaigning you need to understand all the issues and be able to respond to all the arguments, including the most common ones.

Cab, I almost never see a car or a motorised vehicle jump a red light. When it happens, it tends to happen at considerably less than walking pace, and very rarely impinges on the pedestrian crossing. I see bikes jumping red lights at every red light I stop at. Most go through without moderating their speed - say at 15mph - and go straight through the pedestrian crossing. If it's a choice between being hit by a car at considerably less than walking pace or a bike at 15mph I know which one I'd choose. And it's not the bike.

I come back to my previous challenge - what are the stats for the COLP targetting motorised traffic? If, as I suspect, they are fairly active in that regard your whole conspiracy theory falls over. It's relatively well accepted that tackling minor misdemeanors - what makes people upset - to a very high degree results in a generally better quality of life.

I think this must be a wind up.

Bikes the fastest things on the road? Yeah, I am sick of all these people cycling around at fifty or sixty miles an hour in thirty limits!

You never see cars/motorised vehicles jump lights? Maybe, but only if you have your eyes closed.

When it happens it is at walking pace? You are either a joker or a total div.

 

[BentMikey]

Bikes tend to have the fastest average speed in the City, but as you say certainly not the fastest peak speeds.

 

[hackbike 6]

I see cars RLJ sometimes on purpose and sometimes by accident (probably due to lack of concentration)at various speeds.

I know a few sets of lights that are prone to this,I mean the passing of traffic signal at red by accident without paying due care (lack of attention)?

The ped lights at Mile End Tube just before the junction signals (towards Whitechapel) (seen it a few times) and also coming up from Leyton into the Stratford one way system just after the railway bridge outside the station going towards the Stratford one way.(always have to look right depending on my road positioning but tend to look right anyway).I actually have it on film somewhere of a car doing that and actually saw this happen the other day(again).

 

[srw]

A joker and a div speaks:

Arguments backed up by name-calling tend to be weaker than those without name-calling.

I stand by my assertions about motorised RLJs. They're really rather rare where I cycle. And, unlike most of the posters on this thread, that's throught the City of London - Holborn to Leadenhall. Yes, across the Bank junction. What I see there from cyclists is often horrible - a hideous lack of care for themselves and others. What I see from drivers is almost always responsible.

 

[srw]

Yes, srw is wrong and ignorant on the number of motor vehicles that go through red lights. It's blinking scary seeing a bendy bus doing it at speed. 1 in 5 bus drivers were found to have gone through lights more than 3 seconds after they turned to red, and 1 in 10 car drivers in one particular study, by the RAC IIRC.

From personal experience I'm not surprised by those numbers.

At every junction, or ever? From personal experience I'm very surprised by those numbers, so why am I wrong and you right?

About a year ago, one in two cyclists (approximately) in London crossed every junction at red. Thankfully, the proportion is falling, but still many, many cyclists sail across every traffic light.

 

[spindrift]

I stand by my assertions about motorised RLJs. They're really rather rare where I cycle.

When is it OK to jump red lights?

Last week a motorist was sentenced to 21 months in jail for hitting and killing a cyclist after jumping the red lights in Hammersmith.

In 2006, 18 cyclists died and 349 were seriously injured when cars collided with them.

By comparison, there were 58 injuries, most deemed slight by Metropolitan Police figures, when cyclists collided with pedestrians.

If a motorist jumps a red light and hits a pedestrian there’s every chance they’ll kill them.

If a cyclist does it the unlucky victim will probably limp off with a few cuts and bruises. Light jumping is criminal for all but you cannot compare the two cases.

http://www.timeout.com/london/features/4129/6.html

A survey by the RAC found that, yes, a lot of cyclists run red lights. It also found that one in ten drivers in Manchester and London crossed traffic lights more than three seconds after the lights turned red, and one in five bus drivers ran red lights.

There are ten thousand traffic light camera prosecutions annually in London alone, a small part of the 1.5 million prosecutions annually based on camera evidence (I don't know what proportion are speed versus red lights), in turn the tip of the iceberg of twelve million prosecutions and cautions for motoring offences by UK police forces in 2002.


Lawbreaking, then, is not restricted to bikes. Motorists break the law in vast numbers.


http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/Bloody_cyclists

 

[Origamist]

About a year ago, one in two cyclists (approximately) in London crossed every junction at red. Thankfully, the proportion is falling, but still many, many cyclists sail across every traffic light.

Source?

 

[domtyler]

You are right about cyclists jumping red lights, no dispute there. But if you think that all motor vehicle drivers are angels you really do have a screw loose or you are living in a parallel world with an alternative reality.

 

[srw]

There are ten thousand traffic light camera prosecutions annually in London alone

Which rather suggests that this thread's allegations of a vendetta against cyclists is mis-informed. And that my anecdotal evidence of the little bit of central London I see is atypical of the whole of London. So what?

A survey by the RAC found that, yes, a lot of cyclists run red lights. It also found that one in ten drivers in Manchester and London crossed traffic lights more than three seconds after the lights turned red, and one in five bus drivers ran red lights.

What's the definition of "one in ten"? I've already questioned this stat. Is it "one in ten of drivers admit to sometimes crossing red lights when questioned" or is it "we did a count at red lights and observed one in ten drivers crossing them at red"?

 

[srw]

You are right about cyclists jumping red lights, no dispute there. But if you think that all motor vehicle drivers are angels you really do have a screw loose or you are living in a parallel world with an alternative reality.

I don't. I'm making a specific observation about the specific habits of specific drivers in a specific part of London - the specific part of London to which this thread refers. No generalisation about it.

And arguments without name-calling ("screw loose" and "parallel world" are name-calling) are generally better than arguments with.