The most stylish Brompton yet?

[StuAff]

I quite like the wheels that prop it up when it's folded (though easy-wheels would have been sensible) and the front carrier block. Everything else just looks horrible - either too shiny for the sake of it or else oversized for the bike.

I freely admit that that is partly unfamiliarity - I'm very used to the standard Brompton - but a lot of it just seems like upgrades for the sake of upgrades.

It should be shiny- it's titanium. Agreed, a lot of Brompton owners would be perfectly happy with everything else as they can buy now- and no reason (if you could buy one) that you couldn't just have single speed-six speed options as now. But, some people might want more than that, and do (else you wouldn't be able to buy Alfine/Rohloff/derailleur conversions). And the UFB is much lighter, even with all those upgrades. 8kg for the 27 speed.......

 

[srw]

It should be shiny- it's titanium. Agreed, a lot of Brompton owners would be perfectly happy with everything else as they can buy now- and no reason (if you could buy one) that you couldn't just have single speed-six speed options as now. But, some people might want more than that, and do (else you wouldn't be able to buy Alfine/Rohloff/derailleur conversions). And the UFB is much lighter, even with all those upgrades.

For any commercial proposition there's a compromise between development and build cost and market size. As you might (not) know I'm looking at an 8-speed conversion. But for the size of that market it's just not worth Brompton doing the development work.

As I said upthread, their core market is affluent commuters. On my affluent commuter train typically only 3 or 4 out of about 500 passengers tote a Brompton. That's a 300% or 400% increase on a few years ago, but it's still a tiny proportion of the potential market. It will always be more commercially viable for them to focus on what commuters want than on what long-distance riders want.

 

[srw]

Lighter would be nice, as would be quicker fasteners for the hinges. An ovalised section seat-pin would constrain the saddle to point the right way.

Yes, all desirable. The quicker fasteners are now available as after-market options, and will probably make their way onto the core design in due course. Without a frame triangle to give stability lighter will always be a challenge. The ovalised seat-pin is a nice idea but (as you definitely wouldn't know) a heavier rider will very slightly deform the seatpin and so rely on being able to twist the thing to get it lifted.

I have a long enough online Brompton memory to remember calls for better brakes, saddle height limiters, fold lockers and easy wheeling as everything that stood between the Brompton and perfection. Guess what technological improvements have come out in the last 10 years or so?

 

[srw]

I would reckon more than that. Last Tuesday at around 07:40, was on the concourse at Marylebone and watched about a dozen come off one train.

I sit at the back of the train, so might not see them all! And with the 3 or 4 Bromptoneers I see there are the same again of Dahonners and others, all looking rather embarrassed at the general crapness of their bikes.

Even so, a dozen out of 500 is still only 2%. A good 10% or more of those people could easily commute by bike.

 

[StuAff]

For any commercial proposition there's a compromise between development and build cost and market size. As you might (not) know I'm looking at an 8-speed conversion. But for the size of that market it's just not worth Brompton doing the development work.

As I said upthread, their core market is affluent commuters. On my affluent commuter train typically only 3 or 4 out of about 500 passengers tote a Brompton. That's a 300% or 400% increase on a few years ago, but it's still a tiny proportion of the potential market. It will always be more commercially viable for them to focus on what commuters want than on what long-distance riders want.

Indeed so, Will B-A made the point some years back about large-scale manufacturing being very, very different to the Len Rubin (if he's still working on it)/Steve Parry/others doing mods scale. On the one hand, it is indeed much better for them to focus on their core market- they're planning to double production now they've moved, and I imagine there will still be a keen demand for more- but on the other, they are missing out on sales of higher-margin product. And other people have done much of the R&D for them (though scaling it up and quality control would obviously be a different matter). Titanium frames, they could build- or get some blokes in Tennessee or West Sussex to do it for them (very well). Rohloff, derailleurs, they could fit.

 

[srw]

Indeed so, Will B-A made the point some years back about large-scale manufacturing being very, very different to the Len Rubin (if he's still working on it)/Steve Parry/others doing mods scale. On the one hand, it is indeed much better for them to focus on their core market- they're planning to double production now they've moved, and I imagine there will still be a keen demand for more- but on the other, they are missing out on sales of higher-margin product. And other people have done much of the R&D for them (though scaling it up and quality control would obviously be a different matter). Titanium frames, they could build- or get some blokes in Tennessee or West Sussex to do it for them (very well). Rohloff, derailleurs, they could fit.

My sneaking suspicion (and it is only a suspicion) is that part of the move to a new factory is motivated by doing exactly what you suggest. I don't think they'll go down the derailleur route, because they've realised for a long time that derailleurs close to the ground get very mucky and need more maintenance. I wouldn't be surprised to see an official Ti Brommie (although even the East - not West - Sussex manufacturer uses the far East for a lot of its building). I don't think they'll go Rohloff, because that demands a wider triangle, but I do think they'll work up an 8-speed hub geared model based around the standard width SA 8 speed that Kinetics use. And I hope they'll work with SA on an 11-speed or similar model.

 

[StuAff]

My sneaking suspicion (and it is only a suspicion) is that part of the move to a new factory is motivated by doing exactly what you suggest. I don't think they'll go down the derailleur route, because they've realised for a long time that derailleurs close to the ground get very mucky and need more maintenance. I wouldn't be surprised to see an official Ti Brommie (although even the East - not West - Sussex manufacturer uses the far East for a lot of its building). I don't think they'll go Rohloff, because that demands a wider triangle, but I do think they'll work up an 8-speed hub geared model based around the standard width SA 8 speed that Kinetics use. And I hope they'll work with SA on an 11-speed or similar model.

Enigma are in Hailsham- forgot that! Yes, compared to even a 20" wheel, a derailleur on 16" is noticeably lower, and they've been dismissive of derailleurs in the past anyway. Never had a problem with it on my Dahons in terms of muck or maintenance, but those extra inches make a lot of difference. The wider triangle thing I don't get- it would only increase the folded size a little- 15mm!!!-but broaden (literally) their options considerably.
You might well be right about them doing Ti themselves, eventually- the likes of the Black Edition seem more about trying to increase their margins than improvements, and I can't blame them for that. Perhaps they're testing the waters for flogging Ti bikes for considerably more money.

 

[ianrauk]

Wow stylish and brompton in the same sentence. They may 'do the job' but they are fugly.

Have to agree......

 

[srw]

The wider triangle thing I don't get- it would only increase the folded size a little- 15mm!!!-but broaden (literally) their options considerably.

A broader triangle means a different chainline, which means a wider BB. And screws up the backwards compatibility.

 

[Flying Dodo]

Why does there have to be backwards comparability? They can continue a classic version, and also produce an updated version with a slimmer, lighter frame. Such as that lovely Ti version @StuAff posted earlier.

 

[StuAff]

And, as now, there's no reason why older bikes can't be modded for a wider triangle.

 

[srw]

Why does there have to be backwards comparability?

One of those self-imposed constraints - "buy a Brompton and parts will always fit". It also makes the supply chain and production line simpler.

For that matter, why should they only build in London? Why shouldn't they introduce a non-folding model? Or sponsor a race team?

 

[Flying Dodo]

One of those self-imposed constraints - "buy a Brompton and parts will always fit". It also makes the supply chain and production line simpler.

For that matter, why should they only build in London? Why shouldn't they introduce a non-folding model? Or sponsor a race team?

Fair enough, and being built in London is also part of their heritage, so I don't have any issue with that, and it makes good marketing sense. Even if they don't go down the route of a new model and continuing the "classic" version", they could still bring out a new, computer designed main beam and rear triangle which is significantly lighter, can still take a 100kg rider but is still the same shape. 12kg for a typically spec Brompton is not really the way to encourage customers. A lot of people do seem to buy them regardless, due to them being a fashion icon.

Although I'd be quite happy to have a Brompton, I'm even happier having something which is over 2kg lighter, 8 speed and not a Brompton.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

"Innovate or die" springs to mind. Currently Brompton are on a wave due to demand from space concious commuters and trendy types. However it's still the same product as 20 years ago with a heavy, over engineered steel gas pipe as its main frame. Yes, it looks lovely and folds very nicely, but there's a new range of competitors waiting in the wings doing the same or even slightly better. As an example, Apple aren't still selling the Apple Macintosh. If they hadn't brought out new products, they wouldn't still be in existence. Doing special editions like this tie-up with Brooks, or the forthcoming light up frame are merely tinkering at the edges.

Eventually the tide will turn for Brompton unless they bring out a better product. It won't be this year or next year, but 5-10 years down the line.

Countless niche quality products sell perfectly well over considerable periods of time without their manufacturers getting on-board the built-in obsolence bandwagon.

 

[srw]

A lot of people do seem to buy them regardless, due to them being a fashion icon.

Perhaps if your commute involved a busy train journey you'd have a different view about why people buy them!

It's also worth observing that they've currently got a lead time on bespoke bikes of 4 - 8 weeks at least, so they're not exactly short of work at the moment. And that's despite Bromptons being a product which just keeps on going.