The ultimate touring bike?

[Blue Hills]

KASAI Dynacoil FS is field serviceable.

Interesting.
I found this:
https://bikepacking.com/news/kasai-dynacoil-fs-dynamo-hub/

though some of the comments seem to say that you still can't effectively get at the bearings on the electronics side.
Do you know more?
Maybe also of concern to @Vantage one of the comments says that their SP failed after only 1,000 miles not in Outer Mongolia but in Uganda - bit closer to Bolton possibly.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Wasn't it SON that had lots of problems with water ingress?

Yes, they replaced it, but it would have been better if they made the sodding thing properly water resistant in the first place.

Ehm, it had nothing to do with water.
This is the drain....

Front wheel fell into a wider section, resulting in a pringled wheel, dead hub and very embarassed rider.

The whole thing was entirely user error😊

As for water ingress, I've not come across anything specific in relation to SON, other than it's not a good idea to immerse it in water - but the same applies to normal hubs and bottom brackets.

(Straightening the wheel involved a block of wood and some jumping up and down. A fun experience and my whole interaction with the local agent, and his electrical and wheel building friends was very enjoyable!)

As regards servicing....
A new Son is service free for 50,000km (and there are reports of people going further). I use rim brakes so I'd be expecting to be able to coordinate service and new rim.
As it is the clock has been set back to zero on that one!

 

[Vantage]

Maybe also of concern to @Vantage one of the comments says that their SP failed after only 1,000 miles not in Outer Mongolia but in Uganda - bit closer to Bolton possibly.

I get the feeling their qc is a little higgilty piggilty. I've seen those reports of premature wear/failure but I've also seen reports of them lasting in excess of 20,000 miles.
I'll see what happens with mine but I don't plan on ever venturing outside the UK.

 

[matticus]

1 failure after 1,000 miles? Most vehicle manufacturers would be happy with that!

It's the nature of mass manufacturing - and if you want a bespoke dyno-hub (to get better QC) I would imagine it costing 4 figures.
(I work for a bespoke engineering company albeit in a very different field! It costs money to get failure rates down to "almost never".)

 

[mjr]

Ooooooooooh that looks interesting.
I've just read a report by a chap who's bent the fork on his bike using the braking force of that hub
Maybe worth considering if I ever rebuild the front wheel.

I can well believe it. My XL-FDD is fitted to a Dutchie with a substantial fork and it can stop it from my typical speed very abruptly, easily jack-knifing the trailer if fitted. I suspect it would easily fold my light sports roadster's thinner fork. The smaller X-FDD is probably more than adequate for almost all bikes: as long as you have compatible levers (caliper pull not V, IIRC, but SA branded levers are available) and keep the cable adjusted, you'll lose traction long before the brake is fully applied.

Interesting - I didn't know about that.
Why isn't it better known?
One would think Spa would do it if it was so good/sensible?
You can totally service the bearings without any risk of screwing up the electronics?
Would it charge powerbanks OK?

It's not better known because British touring cyclists seem to hate drum brakes.
Spa only sell Sturmey Archer fixed-gear hubs - I don't know if that's due to Spa's reputed quirkiness.
No servicing is without risk (I had a heck of a job with a simple road bike front hub a month or two ago) and detaching/reattaching the connector plug is reportedly a pig.
I believe it will charge powerbanks but I've still not fitted the USB port I bought for mine! I blame this year's main cycling holiday being postponed by some little crisis.

I must say I know nothing about drum brakes or keeping them running/servicing them.
Would be interesred in any resources on this unit.

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/x-fdd has the spec, parts diagram and user manual (the standard version, not the XL).
https://dorkythorpy.blogspot.com/2013/02/sturmey-archer-xl-fdd-dynamo-and-drum.html is one review of the XL.
https://smutpedaller.blogspot.com/2012/02/sturmey-archer-xl-fdd-x-rd3-review.html is another, which I think might be the one @Vantage saw who eventually managed to bend the forks.

It does of course mean you have to keep the dynohub on the bike all the time, something I don't tend to do.

There is also the X-FD which doesn't have the second D for Dynamo on it, and I think you could use the same reaction arm clip on both X-FD and X-FDD (or XL-FD and XL-FDD) but the weight saving is only 450g.

You can trawl CUK forum. Brucey seems to be a fan.

I agree SA hub look interesting but damn, it is porky.

1.22kg for hub, dynamo and brakes is reportedly in the same ballpark as a Shimano hub dynamo plus disc brakes. I see that there's a recently-launched Shimano roller-brake hub dynamo DH-C6000-2R which is described as "lighter and more compact structure" but it's 960g and I think you have to add the roller brake itself which doesn't list its weight so I suspect it may weigh more than SA in total!

Plus I bet it's like other Shimano hubs and they won't sell you most of the parts you'd want to service it: if it develops problems or simply wears out, they want you to junk it and buy a new hub. Throwaway society.

 

[mjr]

The whole thing was entirely user error😊

Not entirely - drains should not have their slots running in the direction of travel for all sorts of reasons, including increased likelihood of motorist wheels stoving the drain in, which I suspect may be the cause of the bigger hole to the left.

In short: it was a trap!

(edited because: fark autocorrect!)

 

[Eziemnaik]

I can well believe it. My XL-FDD is fitted to a Dutchie with a substantial fork and it can stop it from my typical speed very abruptly, easily jack-knifing the trailer if fitted. I suspect it would easily fold my light sports roadster's thinner fork. The smaller X-FDD is probably more than adequate for almost all bikes: as long as you have compatible levers (caliper pull not V, IIRC, but SA branded levers are available) and keep the cable adjusted, you'll lose traction long before the brake is fully applied.


It's not better known because British touring cyclists seem to hate drum brakes.
Spa only sell Sturmey Archer fixed-gear hubs - I don't know if that's due to Spa's reputed quirkiness.
No servicing is without risk (I had a heck of a job with a simple road bike front hub a month or two ago) and detaching/reattaching the connector plug is reportedly a pig.
I believe it will charge powerbanks but I've still not fitted the USB port I bought for mine! I blame this year's main cycling holiday being postponed by some little crisis.


http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/x-fdd has the spec, parts diagram and user manual (the standard version, not the XL).
https://dorkythorpy.blogspot.com/2013/02/sturmey-archer-xl-fdd-dynamo-and-drum.html is one review of the XL.
https://smutpedaller.blogspot.com/2012/02/sturmey-archer-xl-fdd-x-rd3-review.html is another, which I think might be the one @Vantage saw who eventually managed to bend the forks.


There is also the X-FD which doesn't have the second D for Dynamo on it, and I think you could use the same reaction arm clip on both X-FD and X-FDD (or XL-FD and XL-FDD) but the weight saving is only 450g.


1.22kg for hub, dynamo and brakes is reportedly in the same ballpark as a Shimano hub dynamo plus disc brakes. I see that there's a recently-launched Shimano roller-brake hub dynamo DH-C6000-2R which is described as "lighter and more compact structure" but it's 960g and I think you have to add the roller brake itself which doesn't list its weight so I suspect it may weigh more than SA in total!

Plus I bet it's like other Shimano hubs and they won't sell you most of the parts you'd want to service it: if it develops problems or simply wears out, they want you to junk it and buy a new hub. Throwaway society.

Very good point, however as I would use (when possible) V-brakes or mini vs the difference would be greater. But in a grander scheme of things whats a half kg when you carry extra 30kg of luggage?

 

[Pale Rider]

Not entirely - drains should not have their slots running in the direction of travel for all sorts of reasons, including increased likely hood of motorist wheels stoving the drain in, which I suspect may be the cause of the bigger hole to the left.

In short: it was a trap!

On a similar note, a manhole cover is circular and a drain cover is rectangular - in the UK if not elsewhere.

The reason is the circular cover cannot fall down the hole onto the man.

The rectangular drain cover could fall into the hole, but that hole will only be about a metre deep.

I sometimes see covers wrongly described in news reports, which as a grammar/written language Nazi, annoys me.

1 failure after 1,000 miles? Most vehicle manufacturers would be happy with that!

It's the nature of mass manufacturing - and if you want a bespoke dyno-hub (to get better QC) I would imagine it costing 4 figures.

Good post.

Few people understand the maker's definition of quality will often be the number of failures in a given number of units, not the quality of the unit itself.

Which, to drag this back to dynamos, explains why one poster will say Shimano/SON/SP dynos are great, and another poster will say Shimano/SON/SP dynos are rubbish.

It costs money to get failure rates down to "almost never".)

Rohloff is a good example.

Their failure rate does appear to be almost never.

I've only seen one believable account of failure online, and never known one fail personally.

But such quality control costs money, in this case anything up to 10 or 12 times the price of the competition.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

On a similar note, a manhole cover is circular and a drain cover is rectangular - in the UK if not elsewhere.

The reason is the circular cover cannot fall down the hole onto the man.

The rectangular drain cover could fall into the hole, but that hole will only be about a metre deep.

I sometimes see covers wrongly described in news reports, which as a grammar/written language Nazi, annoys me.

If I was spending the kind of money needed for the bike in the op, I'd be expecting to take it to places where drains, covers, manhole covers etc. are not quite as consistent in terms of shape, design, material or even existence!

Which, to drag this back to dynamos, explains why one poster will say Shimano/SON/SP dynos are great, and another poster will say Shimano/SON/SP dynos are rubbish.

I haven't seen anyone here say any hub is rubbish. I recommended SON, not for the hub (I ran a Shimano before using a SON and was unable to notice any difference).

I can't recommend them highly enough. Yes, more expensive, but worth it for the service if and when needed.

Rohloff is a good example.

Their failure rate does appear to be almost never.

But such quality control costs money, in this case anything up to 10 or 12 times the price of the competition.

Stephen Peel of this parish abandoned his tour in France due to Rohloff/frame incompatibility;
Tom Bruce had Rohloff issues in China (Every Inch of the way)
And that's just two out of my head.
On top of that I've come across more than a few references over the years of people getting stuck for a while, due to Rohloff issues. The search function on CGOAB will throw up examples, I'm sure - that's mainly where I would have seen them - often written by one person about another.

At the end of the day some people want a bombproof choice and hope that nothing goes wrong. Others prefer a keep-it-running on the road option.


With any purchase there ate a multitude of factors to consider and we'll all weigh them differently.
If considering investing in something like a Rohloff/Son it is worth remembering that the warranty only applies to the original purchaser.

 

[Blue Hills]

Apologies hobbes, you have probably already mentioned somewhere.
But a question.
(And i appreciate your recent great son warranty outcome)
If you noticed no difference between the running of the shimano and son, why did you go for the son? (Since i presume you had no drain premonition)

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Apologies hobbes, you have probably already mentioned somewhere.
But a question.
(And i appreciate your recent great son warranty outcome)
If you noticed no difference between the running of the shimano and son, why did you go for the son? (Since i presume you had no drain premonition)

50,000 km without a service and a "reputed" excellent customer service.
(I don't need to use "reputed" anymore)
I'd have been looking to get the Shimano serviced several times in parts of the world where there are (practically) no dynohubs.
I'm also not a fan of the plastic cap Shimano supply to connect to the hub. A small branch cracked one on me, although that's not a reason to get a new hub

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Would the SA hub (in non-dyno form) be tandem capable/suitable? Anyone offer a view?

 

[matticus]

At the end of the day some people want a bombproof choice and hope that nothing goes wrong. Others prefer a keep-it-running on the road option.

With any purchase there ate a multitude of factors to consider and we'll all weigh them differently.

Exactly - everything is a compromise. "Reliabilty" comes in different shapes-n-sizes!

 

[Mike Ayling]

If I was spending the kind of money needed for the bike in the op, I'd be expecting to take it to places where drains, covers, manhole covers etc. are not quite as consistent in terms of shape, design, material or even existence!


I haven't seen anyone here say any hub is rubbish. I recommended SON, not for the hub (I ran a Shimano before using a SON and was unable to notice any difference).





Stephen Peel of this parish abandoned his tour in France due to Rohloff/frame incompatibility;
Tom Bruce had Rohloff issues in China (Every Inch of the way)
And that's just two out of my head.
On top of that I've come across more than a few references over the years of people getting stuck for a while, due to Rohloff issues. The search function on CGOAB will throw up examples, I'm sure - that's mainly where I would have seen them - often written by one person about another.

At the end of the day some people want a bombproof choice and hope that nothing goes wrong. Others prefer a keep-it-running on the road option.


With any purchase there ate a multitude of factors to consider and we'll all weigh them differently.
If considering investing in something like a Rohloff/Son it is worth remembering that the warranty only applies to the original purchaser.

I haven't read Tom Bruce's book but on his website he writes:
Rohloff kindly provided me with a fantastic Rohloff Speedhub and loads of support on the road -

Stephen Peel of this parish abandoned his tour in France due to Rohloff/frame incompatibility;

This will not occur with a Tout Terrain, Thorn or any bike designed to use a Rohloff.
Retro fitting a Rohloff should only be attempted by someone who does not deviate from the instructions provided by Rohloff!

If you don't like Rohloff hubs just don't buy one but for me I will never buy a derailleur driven bike.

Mike

 

[HobbesOnTour]

I haven't read Tom Bruce's book but on his website he writes:
Rohloff kindly provided me with a fantastic Rohloff Speedhub and loads of support on the road -

First of all, it appears like you're shouting.
I have read the book and I am aware that the whole bike was given to him gratis.
Does the fact that he got loads of support on the road not emphasise the fact that he needed loads of support on the road?

Stephen Peel of this parish abandoned his tour in France due to Rohloff/frame incompatibility;

This will not occur with a Tout Terrain, Thorn or any bike designed to use a Rohloff.
Retro fitting a Rohloff should only be attempted by someone who does not deviate from the instructions provided by Rohloff!

I read his blog pretty much live, I think a lot of it is gone now because there's a book out or on the way.
If I recall correctly, he was riding a Koga World Traveller, they're built to order, and are designed for Rohloffs. This wasn't a retrobuild.
If I recall the issue correctly, Rohloff had tweaked something, Koga hadn't accommodated that in the design and the use of a belt rather than a chain exacerbated the problem.
It's quite a bold statement to make that x brand would never have that problem. I believe (it's been a few years) there was some infighting between Rohloff & Koga at the time as to where the responsibility lay.

If you don't like Rohloff hubs just don't buy one but for me I will never buy a derailleur driven bike.

Mike

For the record, I have nothing against Rohloff hubs. As I said upthread, everyone has different motivations. I don't believe it's constructive to question people's motivations, but if I have a bit of pertinent info I like to throw it in the pot. The point stands: Rohloffs are pretty bullet-proof until they're not. When they're not there's a whole level of complexity and logistics involved to get them going again.
Happy Rohloff Riding!