This Wiggins incident has brought the numpties out...

[martint235]

Sorry but you still need a lever for change. £1.8m is nothing in the scheme of things.

 

[psmiffy]

I agree - there needs to be some form of lever for real change - but in the meantime - spending £24M to maybe prevent just 2 fatalities and 100 serious injuries would be money well spent.

 

[martint235]

I agree - there needs to be some form of lever for real change - but in the meantime - spending £24M to maybe prevent just 2 fatalities and 100 serious injuries would be money well spent.

Where does £24m come from? Even so, it's small change. The government wants to raise more money from fuel duty and is unlikely to hit motorists with any other change (not suggesting the £24m is raised from drivers). The lever is still missing.

The question we currently want "what's going on with our roads that two important cyclists can be knocked off within 24 hours". What we're getting "What are cyclists doing on A roads at night, they should be banned". Win the PR battle and you'll win the war. While public perception is cyclists run red lights, ride on the pavement etc, you have no chance of winning PR. Sorry.

 

[Stamfli]

I1ve just finished reading through this topic and get concerned at the us/ them mentality, we are all road users flung together on poorly planned road/cycleways.
Recently i had an accident that didn't involve other drivers just crap roads , in this case a 'B' road which had a blind bend on which were several potholes and a lot of sandy gravel left from the heavy rains. No drivers involved.
I drive 2 vehicles and cosequently pay 2 lots of road tax I believe that entitles me to use the roads with my bike as well.
I am not a perfect driver and have often seen some idiotic driving and have been caught out once when commuting on my bike by one such idiot escaping with a cut knee.

However I live on a very busy main road and am ashamed at the amount of dodgy cycling that I see.

I see cyclists jumping lights, mounting pavements to avoid stoping, darting across traffic to take a left/right turn. The dark nights are with us now and soon the mornings will be dark as well yet I see 50% of the bikes going past my house with no lights on! how can they be seen? Cyclists wearing Black kit and astride Black bikes what happened to the slogan 'Be Safe Be Seen'? Why wear Black or buy a black bike? --- So as to NOT be seen?

I see road cyclists out training in poor /dark conditions with no lighting, reflectors on, I light both myself and my bike like a xmas tree, one of these racers told me I'd go faster if I striped the lights and stuff off to save weight. My sport is rowing we believe in resistance training, we even wrap bungees around the hull to add resistance, it makes us stronger and go faster in race trim, why do cyclists have to train with lightest weight bikes and racing lycra? Stop speeding to your meet your maker add a few grams and get lit up!

Let's get our own house in order before blaming others.
I do however agree that drivers should try cycling, mainly because cruising along in their modern cars gives no feel for the road, whereas if they were to have a go on a roadbike along their local high street they'd be horrified at the state of the rough roads which their suspension cushions them from. Bet there would be uproar .

Ride Safe!

 

[fozy tornip]

The dark nights are with us now and soon the mornings will be dark as well yet I see 50% of the bikes going past my house with no lights on! how can they be seen?

Perhaps, in the way in which you see them going past your house?

.. one of these racers told me I'd go faster if I striped the lights and stuff off to save weight.

I don't believe you.

 

[boydj]

....................................
Let's get our own house in order before blaming others.......................

Since you are preaching to the converted on this forum, how do you propose to get to all those errant cyclists who are making life so difficult for the rest of us?

The overwhelming problem is bad driving, with a general lack of courtesy and consideration a primary factor. Driver education and some appropriate law changes is the way ahead. By all means include education for the cyclists in a more general education and awareness campaign, but drivers need to be the primary target.

 

[psmiffy]

The question we currently want "what's going on with our roads that two important cyclists can be knocked off within 24 hours".

I don’t think anything is going on our roads – the two prominent cyclists were not targeted – they were just part and parcel of the regular daily carnage – it could have been you or me.

What we're getting "What are cyclists doing on A roads at night, they should be banned". Win the PR battle and you'll win the war. While public perception is cyclists run red lights, ride on the pavement etc, you have no chance of winning PR. Sorry.

I think I have already agreed to agree with you on this - trouble is winning the “PR battle” is not something that is going to happen overnight – or even maybe this decade – not unless someone invents some sort of fairy dust to sprinkle on cyclists not adhering to the PR model – The revolution in cycling in Holland, Germany and Denmark is often quoted as if somehow someone came along with a quick fix in the 70s/80s – not true it was something that took decades – when I was a kid I cycled in Holland and Germany in the 60s and early 70s – it was already happening then – but it has taken 30years for the culture to be fully established in place. In the meantime something has to be done to cut the number of cyclists and pedestrian that are daily being killed and injured on our roads through no fault of their own.

Where does £24m come from? Even so, it's small change. The government wants to raise more money from fuel duty and is unlikely to hit motorists with any other change (not suggesting the £24m is raised from drivers). The lever is still missing.

The £24 million would be the saving if just two of the hundred plus cyclists who are killed and a hundred of the nearly three thousand seriously injured cyclists were not involved in accidents (BBC figures but I’m sure that they got them from somewhere reliable 2 *£1.8M + 100 * £205k) - it may be peanuts in the overall context of things but would buy a reasonable advertising campaign highlighting SMIDSY and the dangers of say lorries to cyclists – not the answer I know - but I would say if even just one life was saved then it would be a decent investment.

 

[Nebulous]

However I live on a very busy main road and am ashamed at the amount of dodgy cycling that I see.

Really? Are you also ashamed when you see a driver using a mobile phone? If not why not?
Your main responsibility is for yourself and to your family. You aren't responsible for other cyclists and you shouldn't let people put that onto you.

 

[wintonbina]

I1ve just finished reading through this topic and get concerned at the us/ them mentality, we are all road users flung together on poorly planned road/cycleways.
Recently i had an accident that didn't involve other drivers just crap roads , in this case a 'B' road which had a blind bend on which were several potholes and a lot of sandy gravel left from the heavy rains. No drivers involved.
I drive 2 vehicles and cosequently pay 2 lots of road tax I believe that entitles me to use the roads with my bike as well.
I am not a perfect driver and have often seen some idiotic driving and have been caught out once when commuting on my bike by one such idiot escaping with a cut knee.

However I live on a very busy main road and am ashamed at the amount of dodgy cycling that I see.

I see cyclists jumping lights, mounting pavements to avoid stoping, darting across traffic to take a left/right turn. The dark nights are with us now and soon the mornings will be dark as well yet I see 50% of the bikes going past my house with no lights on! how can they be seen? Cyclists wearing Black kit and astride Black bikes what happened to the slogan 'Be Safe Be Seen'? Why wear Black or buy a black bike? --- So as to NOT be seen?

I see road cyclists out training in poor /dark conditions with no lighting, reflectors on, I light both myself and my bike like a xmas tree, one of these racers told me I'd go faster if I striped the lights and stuff off to save weight. My sport is rowing we believe in resistance training, we even wrap bungees around the hull to add resistance, it makes us stronger and go faster in race trim, why do cyclists have to train with lightest weight bikes and racing lycra? Stop speeding to your meet your maker add a few grams and get lit up!

Let's get our own house in order before blaming others.
I do however agree that drivers should try cycling, mainly because cruising along in their modern cars gives no feel for the road, whereas if they were to have a go on a roadbike along their local high street they'd be horrified at the state of the rough roads which their suspension cushions them from. Bet there would be uproar .

Ride Safe!

Whilst I agree on your sentiments, I was knocked off my road bike which wasn't black, it had 2 front & back lights 'all switched on' and I was also wearing a bright orange top and 2 ankle reflectors and yet the motorist didn't see me!!! And the old bill (god bless PC Tans*y ) didn't want take any further action.
I just wish I knew the answer!

 

[martint235]

I don’t think anything is going on our roads – the two prominent cyclists were not targeted – they were just part and parcel of the regular daily carnage – it could have been you or me.

I think I have already agreed to agree with you on this - trouble is winning the “PR battle” is not something that is going to happen overnight – or even maybe this decade – not unless someone invents some sort of fairy dust to sprinkle on cyclists not adhering to the PR model – The revolution in cycling in Holland, Germany and Denmark is often quoted as if somehow someone came along with a quick fix in the 70s/80s – not true it was something that took decades – when I was a kid I cycled in Holland and Germany in the 60s and early 70s – it was already happening then – but it has taken 30years for the culture to be fully established in place. In the meantime something has to be done to cut the number of cyclists and pedestrian that are daily being killed and injured on our roads through no fault of their own.

The £24 million would be the saving if just two of the hundred plus cyclists who are killed and a hundred of the nearly three thousand seriously injured cyclists were not involved in accidents (BBC figures but I’m sure that they got them from somewhere reliable 2 *£1.8M + 100 * £205k) - it may be peanuts in the overall context of things but would buy a reasonable advertising campaign highlighting SMIDSY and the dangers of say lorries to cyclists – not the answer I know - but I would say if even just one life was saved then it would be a decent investment.

I don't disagree. And I agree there is no quick fix. But I think you must accept that to get change we need that lever (I honestly don't know what the Germans used) but we do need one. Without it, the status quo remains.

 

[400bhp]

I don't disagree. And I agree there is no quick fix. But I think you must accept that to get change we need that lever (I honestly don't know what the Germans used) but we do need one. Without it, the status quo remains.

I think it needs some "normal" people to come along and educate, convince and persuade too.

The issue with many campaigners are that they are often seen to be polarised/entrenched in their view and often not taken seriously.

Don't know if this is a separate issue, but I was driving around today and my mind was wondering after I passed a couple of cyclists. Are our viiews to make roads safer a little selfish?

Perhaps the couple of sentences above go hand in hand. Those with an interest in something are often seen as having conflicts of interest.

 

[psmiffy]

I don't disagree. And I agree there is no quick fix. But I think you must accept that to get change we need that lever (I honestly don't know what the Germans used) but we do need one. Without it, the status quo remains.

I agree there must be a lever – trouble is the only lever that I have observed is safety in numbers– not in the CTC sense – but politically – in the European countries with a cycling culture the numbers of cyclists grew year on year to the point that they were a significant proportion of the electorate – took time but cycling was mainstream politics – I cycled bottom to the top of Germany in the run up to the 2009 election – on every single vertical object – fence, telephone, lamp - posts - trees etc - was festooned thousands, nay maybe millions of election posters showing the candidates – by my reckoning at least 30% were shown with a bicycle

 

[growingvegetables]

we need that lever ...

I don't know the politics behind it, but as I understand that the leverage was on two levels

- public disgust at the rates of death and injury;
- and a simple realisation that a public space managed entirely and completely to preserve the privileges and fragile egos of motorised drivers led inevitably to an extremely unpleasant public space.

I have no problem with cycling safely and responsibly. I have no problem expecting other cyclists to do the same.

But calls "to get our house in order"? That's not leverage. That's wishful thinking; worse - it's a cop-out.

 

[martint235]

- public disgust at the rates of death and injury;

But calls "to get our house in order"? That's not leverage. That's wishful thinking; worse - it's a cop-out.

Until you get a positive public perception of cyclists they aren't going to be disgusted at the things that happen to us.

 

[trampyjoe]

Maybe it's just a case that the human race as a whole is turning into a bunch of selfish tw*ts who don't give a fig about others.