This Wiggins incident has brought the numpties out...

[andrew boaz]

I cycled home from work today on a 21 mile commute, 8 miles on a cycleway which was a fantastic tarmac surface. Then i broke off the cycleway in to the heart of Chester and along a couple of busy roads to get the other side of the City. Some great motorists with respect for me on a bike even in rush hour traffic.

Unfortunately about 4 miles from home i was on a stretch of road with a steady incline and a few miles in my legs that had me down to about 15mph. With on coming traffic a wagon had to sit in behind me for approx 500 yards, he sat 10 feet off the back of me revving his engine and when finally coming alongside me blasted his air horn all the way past me and ran very close to me to make his point.

For every decent driver you get a hero in a metal box (in my case a 20+ ton one with a stinking attitude) i normally acknowledge the patience of drivers who sit back then give me a wide berth by putting my hand up but it only takes one to ruin the cycle/driver relations and potentially put someone at serious risk.

 

[Firestorm]

The general perception seems to be two fold
Cyclists feel that the majority of cyclists obey the rules of the road Non cyclists feel that the Majority don't
In my 10 minute walk from the station to the office in London i reckon that each journey I encounter
1 bike going the wrong way up a one way street,
two on pavements
4 rljs at a traffic light controlled junction (one of which is often followed by the one way street thing above)
2 rljs on a pelican crossing
And 1 cyclist signalling correctly
I Reckon that 25% of the cyclists I see are doing something wrong

Its no small wonder that non bike riders in london have a downer on cyclists

 

[Dan B]

Even if every cyclist stopped jumping red lights tomorrow, they'd still be an out group and still be pilloried for taking the lane, not taking the lane, filtering, not filtering, using pavement shared lanes, not using them, going too slowly, going too fast, locking their bikes where they want to... if you want to change the attitude of Joe Public, get him to try a bicycle himself and realise that 'they' are actually just more of 'us'

But it needs to be a voluntary act on his part, not a requirement - taxi drivers in London all have however many hours experience on mopeds doing the Knowledge, and still all revert to being the most arrogant people on the roads as soon as they get in their cabs, so just the experience of some other form of transport is evidently insufficient...

 

[Davidsw8]

Tell me you're taking the **** please.

Clearly not from the many responses I've posted since that comment...

 

[PK99]

. Yes, I take a lane frequently but that's my right. We need the public on our side. The public don't see me and you. They see the RLJer. Game over. Seriously. Until the cyclist wins the public support this argument is null and void.

I take the lane regularly too, pinch points passing lines of parked cars etc. i always indicate (point to the bit of road I'm about to occupy) and always give a thumbs up to a driver who drops back or who i am holding up but stays sensibly behind. Yes I have a right to do occupy the lane but having a right does not absolve me of the need to be courteous and recognise courtesy in return.

 

[fossyant]

I take the lane regularly too, pinch points passing lines of parked cars etc. i always indicate (point to the bit of road I'm about to occupy) and always give a thumbs up to a driver who drops back or who i am holding up but stays sensibly behind. Yes I have a right to do occupy the lane but having a right does not absolve me of the need to be courteous and recognise courtesy in return.

Many of us do that, me too, always thank drivers, but you get the odd one or two that push it too far. We, dunno, they have the problem.

 

[PK99]

Hey...this Tory government has taxed things like pasties etc..i wouldn't put it past them to target us cyclists

As I've said before - three guys come out of the pub one evening with the munchies: one gets a take away pizza, one gets fish and chips and gets a pastie. Two pay VAT but Pasty man get away VAT free - is that sensible?

 

[shouldbeinbed]

This country is big on over-legislation so why not a bit more?

I was thinking last night, it would be good if as part of the driving test, people had to complete 10 hours cycling round a town centre. It's not until I re-started cycling earlier this year that I got to appreciate how dangerous it can be and what the perils are - people really need to put themselves in the shoes of others, empathy seems to be lost...

The most dangerous roads are country ones, faster speeds, hedges etc why limit an unenforceable idea anyway to an urban environment.

Are you proposing those that are physically unable to ride a bike should also be precluded from the freedom and independence an adapted car could give them & at a lesser level what about people that never learned to ride or simply don't want to do so.

The problem is that the driving test and post speeding etc drive aware courses and my Mrs IAM courses barely ever touch on cycling, its not so much empathy missing from the individual driver as a fundamental lack of understanding and officially sanctioned ignorance from the off that needs to change. if the DfT driving instruction attitude is basically one of f**k em then what hope do we have for individuals empathy.

Also are you proposing to rescind the 30 odd million driving licences already in existence and force everyone to retake their test with the 10 hours in a specific environment on a bike or will we just have to wait 60 odd years for every current non forced cyclist driver to have died or retired?
I don't know about you but my driving instruction told me not to speed, how to park, use my mirrors, look and concentrate, be a patient and *christian* motorist, how to do a 3 point turn properly etc and I was tested on these, I guess everyone elses did, yet the moment I & (the vast majority of) everyone else passed our test we began the process of slipping into bad habits and seeing ourselves as the only important journey on the roads. Speed and parking particularly, how often do you see people swing their car round in a road or screw it backwards round a corner like they're in a cop chase. Training very quickly gets forgotten or deliberately ignored.

Do you honestly think that in 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, 26 years etc down the line anyone but existing cyclists and their nearest & dearest will remember 10 hours of forced labour on a mode of transport 97% of them have never routinely used since and behave any differently to how they would otherwise when they're ten minutes late or have had a bad day or the kids are squabbling in the back or they're singing along to the radio and eating a mars bar or they're.............. You seem to think people will ascribe a lifetimes importance to a tiny enforced fraction of their learning experience. I think you couldn't be more wrong on that altruistic view of us as a a tribe of drivers.

Not to mention the (valid if slightly strawman) argument that I'm not made to empathise with Bus Drivers or Artic lorry drivers or local hop WVM by being forced to use their modes of transport to understand how my interaction and casual selfishness affects them and leads in turn to them driving in such a way and using might-is-right to my detriment.

 

[trampyjoe]

In all the 'discussions' I've read on these here forums about legislation and taxation and registration and generally trying to change peoples perceptions there is something I don't ever recall seeing discussed. Education (but not for drivers!).

My opinion is that the Schools National Curriculum (or whatever they call it these days) should include two things.
1. The modern day equivalent of the 'Green Cross Code' Not as an after thought (I asked around and apparently this is taught but not in great detail - something about hedgehogs?! Please, feel free to correct me if it is taught in a big-in-your-face-if-you-pratt-about-on-the-road-you-die kind of way. From what I've seen of kids and roads I highly doubt this).

And more importantly for the purposes of this forum:

2. Compulsory bikability, and more than just a lunchtime when the kids are 8. When I was at school the cycling proficiency was offered but it was only for people that had bikes at the time (I didn't) and you had to give up your lunch (big disincentive for greedy me).
I seem to recall there being many discussions in the past (not on here I might add) about people being taught road skills, in a car, at a younger age than 16/17. Why not do that as a compulsary skill throughout the kids senior school years but on a pushbike. This would have the added benifit of our kids getting excercise and learning (two things kids hate) whilst having a bit of fun.

Well that's my thoughts on it, I'm going to skulk back to my corner now.

Oh and the two discussing cords for blinds ... Legislation is no replacement for good parenting. If a parent doesn't watch their child these sad events happen (for example, whilst I've typed this post, my 17 month old is blowing raspberries at me from her high security playpen - and I've looked over at her at least twice a minute. Maybe a parenting licence should be introduced? <- please please please don't discuss this otherwise I'll start ranting about the scum I see nearly everyday that have kids and shouldn't).

 

[trampyjoe]

Humans (and taxi drivers) on the whole behave badly, But hang on they are in a metal box and unlikely to get hurt.
Humans behave in different ways, some good, a lot bad.
Humans, behave in different ways. Some good, some bad, some downright idiotic.

FTFY

 

[Davidsw8]

The most dangerous roads are country ones, faster speeds, hedges etc why limit an unenforceable idea anyway to an urban environment.

Are you proposing those that are physically unable to ride a bike should also be precluded from the freedom and independence an adapted car could give them & at a lesser level what about people that never learned to ride or simply don't want to do so.

The problem is that the driving test and post speeding etc drive aware courses and my Mrs IAM courses barely ever touch on cycling, its not so much empathy missing from the individual driver as a fundamental lack of understanding and officially sanctioned ignorance from the off that needs to change. if the DfT driving instruction attitude is basically one of f**k em then what hope do we have for individuals empathy.

Also are you proposing to rescind the 30 odd million driving licences already in existence and force everyone to retake their test with the 10 hours in a specific environment on a bike or will we just have to wait 60 odd years for every current non forced cyclist driver to have died or retired?
I don't know about you but my driving instruction told me not to speed, how to park, use my mirrors, look and concentrate, be a patient and *christian* motorist, how to do a 3 point turn properly etc and I was tested on these, I guess everyone elses did, yet the moment I & (the vast majority of) everyone else passed our test we began the process of slipping into bad habits and seeing ourselves as the only important journey on the roads. Speed and parking particularly, how often do you see people swing their car round in a road or screw it backwards round a corner like they're in a cop chase. Training very quickly gets forgotten or deliberately ignored.

Do you honestly think that in 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, 26 years etc down the line anyone but existing cyclists and their nearest & dearest will remember 10 hours of forced labour on a mode of transport 97% of them have never routinely used since and behave any differently to how they would otherwise when they're ten minutes late or have had a bad day or the kids are squabbling in the back or they're singing along to the radio and eating a mars bar or they're.............. You seem to think people will ascribe a lifetimes importance to a tiny enforced fraction of their learning experience. I think you couldn't be more wrong on that altruistic view of us as a a tribe of drivers.

Not to mention the (valid if slightly strawman) argument that I'm not made to empathise with Bus Drivers or Artic lorry drivers or local hop WVM by being forced to use their modes of transport to understand how my interaction and casual selfishness affects them and leads in turn to them driving in such a way and using might-is-right to my detriment.

It was just a thought...

I was just saying that it's not until I re-started cycling that I began to understand the problems, putting oneself in someone else's shoes can't be a bad thing.

Based on your argument, there isn't much point in half of the driving test besides your basic operation of a car... who'd remember 20 years later what the stopping distances are? Most people are going to totally forget the Highway Code they spend hours revising for the test... etc.

As I say, it was just a suggestion as to how to make things better.

 

[Lancj1]

I got my first bike in the mid sixties,and my first car in the late seventies. I ride and drive happily.

I do get slightly twitched about the paranoia I am meant to display as a cyclist - threads such as how to report people using mobiles embarrass me to be honest. Accidents happen on roads to all users. A casual look at news websites will show a car full of teenagers died yesterday after a crash with a lorry. All must take care and whilst drivers must be more aware of cyclists - that doesn't mean they all hate us or are out to get us. Most of my non cycling driving associates are slightly envious of the cycling lifestyle. We need to use Brads crash positively.

That said....Vehicle Excise Duty, which is paid to the government for a vehicle license and must be displayed on most motor vehicles used on public roads.

Since 1937 there has been no direct relationship between the tax and government expenditure on public roads.

 

[Davidsw8]

The most dangerous roads are country ones, faster speeds, hedges etc why limit an unenforceable idea anyway to an urban environment.

Are you proposing those that are physically unable to ride a bike should also be precluded from the freedom and independence an adapted car could give them & at a lesser level what about people that never learned to ride or simply don't want to do so.

The problem is that the driving test and post speeding etc drive aware courses and my Mrs IAM courses barely ever touch on cycling, its not so much empathy missing from the individual driver as a fundamental lack of understanding and officially sanctioned ignorance from the off that needs to change. if the DfT driving instruction attitude is basically one of f**k em then what hope do we have for individuals empathy.

Also are you proposing to rescind the 30 odd million driving licences already in existence and force everyone to retake their test with the 10 hours in a specific environment on a bike or will we just have to wait 60 odd years for every current non forced cyclist driver to have died or retired?
I don't know about you but my driving instruction told me not to speed, how to park, use my mirrors, look and concentrate, be a patient and *christian* motorist, how to do a 3 point turn properly etc and I was tested on these, I guess everyone elses did, yet the moment I & (the vast majority of) everyone else passed our test we began the process of slipping into bad habits and seeing ourselves as the only important journey on the roads. Speed and parking particularly, how often do you see people swing their car round in a road or screw it backwards round a corner like they're in a cop chase. Training very quickly gets forgotten or deliberately ignored.

Do you honestly think that in 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, 26 years etc down the line anyone but existing cyclists and their nearest & dearest will remember 10 hours of forced labour on a mode of transport 97% of them have never routinely used since and behave any differently to how they would otherwise when they're ten minutes late or have had a bad day or the kids are squabbling in the back or they're singing along to the radio and eating a mars bar or they're.............. You seem to think people will ascribe a lifetimes importance to a tiny enforced fraction of their learning experience. I think you couldn't be more wrong on that altruistic view of us as a a tribe of drivers.

Not to mention the (valid if slightly strawman) argument that I'm not made to empathise with Bus Drivers or Artic lorry drivers or local hop WVM by being forced to use their modes of transport to understand how my interaction and casual selfishness affects them and leads in turn to them driving in such a way and using might-is-right to my detriment.

Also... (sorry ) thinking about the other points.

Disabled drivers: no, of course not. I imagine the proportion of disabled drivers is tiny and the proportion of them that are bad drivers probably even smaller. However, is the standard driving test the same for disabled drivers anyway? i.e. in the same conditions etc? You can at least undergo theoretical/simulated cycle training/awareness if nothing else.

Retaking tests: I think most drivers should have to retake their test every 15-20 years anyway, but aside from that, the test has changed since I did it 25 years ago and I've not been asked to re-take, it's not something people think to do upon change generally is it.

 

[mickle]

Cmon people its not difficult. Leaflets sent out with vehicle reg docs. Public service broadcasts ont telly. Posters on bus stops. Changes to the driving test

Combined with the blanket rolling out of twenty mph zones combined with proper prosecution and decent punishments for poor driving. And a change in the presumption of liability in 'accidents' involving bikes vs motor vehicles.

All paid for out of the savings made from fewer KSIs.

 

[psmiffy]

All paid for out of the savings made from fewer KSIs.

Yup - you can buy a decent slice of public education at £1.8M/fatal and £205k/serious