Very new to this game I have narrowed it down to these 2 for my first touring bike as an upgrade from my Marin Larkspur to use for camping touring (about 15kg carried) and, hopefully some 100km/ 100 mile charity events. I am going round in circles making my mind up! I have also considered the Hewitt but it is a long way! I can get both for give or take the same price – about £900. I have considered the Super thus saving £150 but it is Brown, nothing wrong with it but not for me! and I want SPD pedals ( standard on the Ultra), I think it is worth it for the XT upgrades and fancy trying a Brooks saddle Issues now are: The frame – 853 Or 725. Will I realistically notice any difference? Which is ‘better’ - Thorn have more sizes available and at 5’ 10” I seem to fall between 2 galaxy sizes? Chainset – Sugino 48/38/28 v Shimano 48/36/26 ( 23.6” v 21.9” – I am not fit!) Crank Length - I can choose 170 or 175 on the Thorn Handlebar Width – choice of 3 on the Club tour Wheels –XT hubs v Handbuilt on Deore Hubs XT – the Galaxy has more Shimano XT stuff on it Thorn do not have bikes for a test ride – they tell me they no not allow this on their derailleur bikes - but do have a 14 day money back guarantee – it’s a 2:30 hour round trip and it means taking 2 days off work – I want to talk face to face to specify and then have a setting up session. Any future adjustment is by post! My LBS can get me the Galaxy but I cannot return it (well I can but it will cost a 10% re-stock from Dawes – he will order it in specially.) I have ridden one v briefly and was impressed – but everything seems great when its new for the first 5 mins. He will change stem & seatpost as part of the deal if required. Has the attraction that any problems he is 5 mins from where I work and he provides an excellent service. Any thoughts on this, yet another, ‘what bike’ thread’?