Titanium ????

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Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
"A double-diamond frame bike is essentially an inflexible truss that does not absorb shock due to its shape. It cannot be distorted (not enough to soak up bumps in anyway), so that is a myth." I'd be keen to hear someone explain why this isn't correct, and why. You'd think the cycle industry would have done research and shared it.
Really ? I'd like to see the peer reviewed literature on this one because it goes against what a frame builder / designer told me .
If you'd like to see the 'peer-reviewed literature' on this, please find it and share it. As I said, "I'd be keen to hear someone explain why this isn't correct, and why" (the original quote is not mine but I can see why it may be true). (Perhaps 'a frame builder/designer' could help with the science/research which would back up what he/she told you.
 

FishFright

More wheels than sense
"A double-diamond frame bike is essentially an inflexible truss that does not absorb shock due to its shape. It cannot be distorted (not enough to soak up bumps in anyway), so that is a myth." I'd be keen to hear someone explain why this isn't correct, and why. You'd think the cycle industry would have done research and shared it.

If you'd like to see the 'peer-reviewed literature' on this, please find it and share it. As I said, "I'd be keen to hear someone explain why this isn't correct, and why" (the original quote is not mine but I can see why it may be true). (Perhaps 'a frame builder/designer' could help with the science/research which would back up what he/she told you.

I am genuinely interested that's why asked you
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
Genuinely interested x 2.
Extracts from "Bicycle Frame" Wikipedia:
"Stiffness (or elastic modulus) can in theory affect the ride comfort and power transmission efficiency. In practice, because even a very flexible frame is much more stiff than the tires and saddle, ride comfort is ultimately more a factor of saddle choice, frame geometry, tire choice, and bicycle fit. Lateral stiffness is far more difficult to achieve because of the narrow profile of a frame, and too much flexibility can affect power transmission, primarily through tire scrub on the road due to rear triangle distortion, brakes rubbing on the rims and the chain rubbing on gear mechanisms."

"While many riders claim that steel frames give a smoother ride than aluminum because aluminum frames are designed to be stiffer, that claim is of questionable validity: the bicycle frame itself is extremely stiff vertically because it is made of triangles. Conversely, this very argument calls the claim of aluminum frames having greater vertical stiffness into question."

"Titanium is perhaps the most exotic and expensive metal commonly used for bicycle frame tubes. It combines many desirable characteristics, including a high strength to weight ratio and excellent corrosion resistance. Reasonable stiffness (roughly half that of steel) allows for many titanium frames to be constructed with "standard" tube sizes comparable to a traditional steel frame, although larger diameter tubing is becoming more common for more stiffness. Titanium is more difficult to machine than steel or aluminum, which sometimes limits its uses and also raises the effort (and cost) associated with this type of construction."

and from Sheldon:

Vertical stiffness
"(Since this article deals with frames, the issue at hand is road shock transmitted from the rear tire to the saddle. Ride qualities experienced at the handlebars are to a large extent determined by the fork, as well as geometry, and flex in other bolt-on parts, but are unrelated to the choice of frame material.)
Much of the commonplace B.S. that is talked about different frame materials relates to imagined differences in vertical stiffness. It will be said that one frame has a comfy ride and absorbs road shocks, while another is alleged to be harsh and make you feel every crack in the pavement. Virtually all of these "differences" are either the imaginary result of the placebo effect, or are caused by something other than the frame material choice.

"Bumps are transmitted from the rear tire patch, through the tire, the wheel, the seatstays, the seatpost, the saddle frame, and the saddle top. All these parts deflect to a greater or lesser extent when you hit a bump, but not to an equal extent.

"The greatest degree of flex is in the tire; probably the second greatest is the saddle itself. If you have a lot of seatpost sticking out of a small frame, there's noticeable flex in the seatpost. The shock-absorbing qualities of good-quality wheels are negligible...and now we get to the seat stays. The seat stays (the only part of this system that is actually part of the frame) are loaded in pure, in-line compression. In this direction, they are so stiff, even the lightest and thinnest ones, that they can contribute nothing worth mentioning to shock absorbency.

"The only place that frame flex can be reasonably supposed to contribute anything at all to "suspension" is that, if you have a long exposed seatpost that doesn't run too deep into the seat tube, the bottom end of the seatpost may cause the top of the seat tube to bow very slightly. Even this compliance is only a fraction of the flex of the exposed length of the seatpost."
 

Mr Celine

Discordian
"A double-diamond frame bike is essentially an inflexible truss that does not absorb shock due to its shape. It cannot be distorted (not enough to soak up bumps in anyway), so that is a myth."

Hooke's law. Stress is proportional to strain. If the frame is stressed by a bump in the road, it must strain accordingly. Here's another infexible truss, the deck of the Forth Road Bridge, which under load can clearly be seen to be flexible.
6a00d8345659ae69e201b7c7f8bb22970b.jpg

Whether or not you'd notice the deflection on a bike frame is a different question.
 

jowwy

Can't spell, Can't Punctuate....Sue Me
Thought this thread was about buying a titanium frame.....quite a lot gone hugely off topic
 

ianrauk

Tattooed Beat Messiah
Location
Rides Ti2
Anyone else just go by the colour and don't give a stuff what it's made of?


One of the main reasons I bought a Ti bike is because it has no colour, just bare metal. I also took off all the graphics. My Van Nick is just a plain metallic looking frame.
I am also toying with the idea of stripping down a painted Alu frame to the bare metal but I am guessing that you would need some sort of protectorate over the frame to stop it from rusting.
 

Venod

Eh up
Location
Yorkshire
I am also toying with the idea of stripping down a painted Alu frame to the bare metal but I am guessing that you would need some sort of protectorate over the frame to stop it from rusting.

I had a Genesis MTB that was bare aluminium it just had a clear lacquer coat for protection, it looked very nice, but the lacquer did start peeling which spoilt its appearance.
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
One of the main reasons I bought a Ti bike is because it has no colour, just bare metal. I also took off all the graphics. My Van Nick is just a plain metallic looking frame.
I am also toying with the idea of stripping down a painted Alu frame to the bare metal but I am guessing that you would need some sort of protectorate over the frame to stop it from rusting.

My understanding is aluminium 'rusts' in the sense a naked tube will form an oxide, which has the look of a light, almost powdery, coating.

What it won't do is 'rust through' like steel.

I reckon your bare ally bike would work, but you might not be keen on the look of it.
 

Bonefish Blues

Banging donk
Location
52 Festive Road
My understanding is aluminium 'rusts' in the sense a naked tube will form an oxide, which has the look of a light, almost powdery, coating.

What it won't do is 'rust through' like steel.

I reckon your bare ally bike would work, but you might not be keen on the look of it.
Tell that to my aluminium trowel I left in a bag of fertilizer by mistake. Fair ate it :huh:
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
Tell that to my aluminium trowel I left in a bag of fertilizer by mistake. Fair ate it :huh:

It might depend on constitution of the 'aluminium' and what it is alloyed with.

I had a hand in building a modsports racing car years ago, largely from sheets of what we called aluminium, held together with hundreds of pop rivets.

The sheets lasted for years and never rusted even though they were left bare.
 

Bonefish Blues

Banging donk
Location
52 Festive Road
It might depend on constitution of the 'aluminium' and what it is alloyed with.

I had a hand in building a modsports racing car years ago, largely from sheets of what we called aluminium, held together with hundreds of pop rivets.

The sheets lasted for years and never rusted even though they were left bare.
I agree - I have seen "aluminium" which has just crumbled away to powder, whereas I thought that the oxidised layer protected the metal from further corrosion.
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
I agree - I have seen "aluminium" which has just crumbled away to powder, whereas I thought that the oxidised layer protected the metal from further corrosion.

I understood the same, the oxidised layer is the 'rust', but it has a protective effect.

Thus people will say an aluminium car body 'doesn't rust' because you won't see holes appear in the panels.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
Is Titanium really worth the extra cost over a nice good steel frame, or are we just considering bling value.
Thought this thread was about buying a titanium frame.....quite a lot gone hugely off topic
I refer the honourable member to the first sentence of the OP. Very few posters have offered an answer to that question.
the idea of stripping down a painted Alu frame to the bare metal
My '81 ALAN is 'bare (brushed?) aluminium' tubes (no decals), glued and screwed into cast aluminium lugs (with Nuovo Record derailleurs and SR Apex chainset 50-40). When I bought it in '83 I'm sure the publican I bought it off said it was titanium alloy but several years later I discovered that that was well before titanium's time (although I suspect the way the frame was fastened to together could have been used with titanium tubes (the aluminium tubes were the same size (external diameter) as 'normal' steel frame (tubes).
The aluminium tubes seem to have no apparent lacquer finish or any 'oxidation'.
 
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