Tour de France 2026 ***Spoilers***

[Pblakeney]

Well he won in both 2014 and 2015 without a stage win (Kittel got 4 in '14, Greipel 4 in '15)

But if we look closer, in '14 he had eleven top ten finishes, including four second places and in '15 he had eleven top ten finishes, five of which were second place so I think we can be OK with that, he was literally in the top ten for over half the stages raced for those two years. In the seven editions he won green he was in the top ten on 74 stages out of 147, that's 50.3% It would be churlish to deny that was green jersey worthy.


Just for interest, in the twelve Tours he started he was in the top ten on 92 stages out of 235 (he only raced four stages in 2017 when he was rightly DQed for putting Cav into the barriers). That's 39% of stages he raced in the Tour he was in the top ten. Pretty much the same as Pogacar, though obviously a lot more of Pog's were stage wins.

I’m not going to argue against any of that.
My original point was that he knew how to win the jersey despite not being the best sprinter. Because it is a points jersey.

 

[No Ta Doctor]

I’m not going to argue against any of that.
My original point was that he knew how to win the jersey despite not being the best sprinter. Because it is a points jersey.

They should probably just do it old school like the original points based GCs. Just add up finishing positions, the rider with the lowest total is the winner.

The problem with saying "it's a points jersey" is that points are inherently meaningless. You get points in the KoM jersey competition as well, but that's not the "points jersey" apparently.

 

[wakemalcolm]

How about all stages must finish in a town with a velodrome and anyone finishing in the front group that wants to win the stage takes part in a devil.

 

[Pblakeney]

They should probably just do it old school like the original points based GCs. Just add up finishing positions, the rider with the lowest total is the winner.

The problem with saying "it's a points jersey" is that points are inherently meaningless. You get points in the KoM jersey competition as well, but that's not the "points jersey" apparently.

The points jersey is for the sponsors. Intermediate points are to entice some to watch more of the stage than the last 5kms.
Leave it to stage winners and Pog wins.
Where’s the fun in that?
Too many intermediate points and a rouler (Sagan?) wins. Getting the balance so a sprinter always wins is nigh on impossible.

 

[Pross]

Well Sagan's first green jersey came in 2012, where Cav won three stages, but so did he (and Griepel). He also got placings in multiple stages where Cav was nowhere and chased the intermediates. I don't think anyone is going to complain about that

And yes, it's a points jersey not a sprints jersey, but it's designed for sprinters, that's why you don't get the same amount of points for winning on Hautacam as you do for winning in Bordeaux. And regardless of whether it's a sprinter jersey or points jersey, you want the guy winning nearly a third of the stages in the race to be wearing it over someone who's only won one or two

So you want Pog to win green? I thought that’s what they were trying to get away from.

 

[No Ta Doctor]

So you want Pog to win green? I thought that’s what they were trying to get away from.

No, because it's meant to be for sprinters.

 

[Pross]

No, because it's meant to be for sprinters.

You said you want the guy who has won a third of stages to be wearing it over someone who has only won one or two. In recent years that has been Pog. The reason he came close to green last year is he wins loads of stages.

 

[No Ta Doctor]

You said you want the guy who has won a third of stages to be wearing it over someone who has only won one or two. In recent years that has been Pog. The reason he came close to green last year is he wins loads of stages.

Underlying everything I've said on this topic is that I think it's a competition for sprinters and should be weighted accordingly

If GC riders - well Pog - is coming close to winning it then it needs tweaking. If sprinters are winning five or six stages and not winning it it needs tweaking. It's very simple, and purely pragmatic. I don't have some deeper philosophical position to justify. This is pretty much ASO's approach and I'm fine with it

 

[Aravis]

Underlying everything I've said on this topic is that I think it's a competition for sprinters and should be weighted accordingly

If GC riders - well Pog - is coming close to winning it then it needs tweaking. If sprinters are winning five or six stages and not winning it it needs tweaking. It's very simple, and purely pragmatic. I don't have some deeper philosophical position to justify. This is pretty much ASO's approach and I'm fine with it

I disagree. It wasn't this when it was introduced; it may be a broadly accurate description of what we have at the moment but this is largely by evolution. Tastes and fashions will no doubt move on in the future.

A rider who wins five or six sprint stages has his reward. Giving him an extra laurel wreath for that alone isn't particularly illuminating. If someone can beat him by scoring more points across everything that contributes to the green jersey competition, I think that's great.

 

[Pross]

Underlying everything I've said on this topic is that I think it's a competition for sprinters and should be weighted accordingly

If GC riders - well Pog - is coming close to winning it then it needs tweaking. If sprinters are winning five or six stages and not winning it it needs tweaking. It's very simple, and purely pragmatic. I don't have some deeper philosophical position to justify. This is pretty much ASO's approach and I'm fine with it

The whole issue is sprinters aren’t winning 5 or 6 stages at present. Pog came second on points last year because the sprint stages got spread about with Merlier and Milan ‘only’ getting two each. Pog took four stages, also unlike many GC riders in recent years he can win any stage other than the full bunch sprints. It doesn’t help the sprinters that they had ‘their’ final stage taken away.

 

[Dogtrousers]

All of the competitions (Yellow, green and polka dot) are contrived attempts to spice up a race that otherwise could become very boring festival of negative tactics.

The aim is to attract the public, attract riders and attract sponsors. There's continuous compromise and mudge and fudge.

The purpose of the green jersey is to provide a secondary competition that attracts star riders who aren't in with a shout of winning the GC, to keep them honest and discourage negativity with the intermediates, and to give them a reason not to pack up and go home half way.

It's not possible to look back at the intent of first points comp in 1905 and try to divine some kind of idea "pure" intent from the past. It was a fudge and a publicity stunt. The whole thing is a fudge.

So if they want to tweak the competition to favour rider X vs rider Y and produce a better spectacle they can and they must because that is the whole point of the TdF.

 

[Pross]

All of the competitions (Yellow, green and polka dot) are contrived attempts to spice up a race that otherwise could become very boring festival of negative tactics.

The aim is to attract the public, attract riders and attract sponsors. There's continuous compromise and mudge and fudge.

The purpose of the green jersey is to provide a secondary competition that attracts star riders who aren't in with a shout of winning the GC, to keep them honest and discourage negativity with the intermediates, and to give them a reason not to pack up and go home half way.

It's not possible to look back at the intent of first points comp in 1905 and try to divine some kind of idea "pure" intent from the past. It was a fudge and a publicity stunt. The whole thing is a fudge.

So if they want to tweak the competition to favour rider X vs rider Y and produce a better spectacle they can and they must because that is the whole point of the TdF.

Yep, and occasionally the system doesn’t achieve its aim. In this case partly due to a dominant GC contender who can win on a mixed range of stages and partly due to the lack of a dominant out and out sprinter capable of taking 4 or 5 stage wins. Even then it was still won by a sprinter last year which suggests the system is working.

The KOM is a tougher one as by its nature GC riders snap up the big points and you can argue they should be winning it as they are also the best climbers. The interest in that, ironically, tends to be the early flatter stages and then possibly riders who can get in breaks day after day on mountain stages. To fudge that competition you need to up points on smaller climbs and weight in favour of climbs early in the stage which is the opposite of what they do at present. This year with the early mountains it looks like being in the hands of a GC rider more or less from the start.

 

[Aravis]

In what way is the yellow jersey competition contrived?

One fairly recent change in the way the Tour is raced is the tendency to keep breakaways on a much shorter leash. I seem to remember that not so long ago most mountain days were won by stage hunters, with the GC battle taking place a few minutes behind. If the points allocation systems remain the same you'd expect this to swing both green and polka dot competitions in the direction of GC contenders - the latter perhaps more so.

 

[Dogtrousers]

In what way is the yellow jersey competition contrived?

Well they have to figure out a way to declare who is the winner of a series of one day races. That's not obvious. There are two valid ways - accumulated time and placing points.

So they pick time. Fair enough. But then they find that the lazy riders aren't flogging themselves enough for the public. They're just doing enough to mark their GC rivals. So we get bonus seconds at the finish and at strategic other places.

That's what I mean by contrived.

Yellow is less contrived than the other jumpers but it's still subject to the contrivances of the organisers to put on a show. And that's before we even get to the choice of the route, the climbs, the TTs.

 

[wakemalcolm]

In what way is the yellow jersey competition contrived?

Bonification seconds