Want to be sure about correct parts

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Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
I'd just like to add, at the risk of being considered presumptious, to @Yellow Saddle 's diatribe (all good stuff and illuminating btw):

"We liked the Victory 30, a good looking, free rolling wheel (12) that held firm under the weight of a large test pilot. A longer test to establish the longevity of the front bearing would allow us to recommend them wholeheartedly." (13)

12) The hefty, powerful test pilot is back again in this paragraph and recons (sic) the wheels are pretty. I can't argue with that but I can ask what the hell ‘free-rolling’ means? Don't all wheels roll freely until you apply the brake?

13) On what basis should the tester make such an assumption (that a longer test would establish the (small) front bearing’s longevity – it wouldn’t: quite the reverse, and one might assume that the reviewer's experience would mean he/she knows this), let alone share it?
 
Location
Loch side.
One thing I don't understand is, surely a bearings durability is a function of its quality rather than its diameter? So I don't understand why a 28/22 setup would be inherently better than four 17s. Assuming the build quality of the bearings were equivalent. Anyone know the answer? Bb

Durability of a bearing is determined by quality and the correct size bearing for the job.

Cartridge ball bearings are so-called deep-groove ball bearings. This means that the balls run between a (shallow) groove on the outside of the inner race and inside of the outer race. The contact surface area of the balls determine how much stress the balls place on the race. Obviously a larger ball will create a larger contact area and vice versa. The contact area is important because the steel deforms when the bearing is loaded. The ball if flattened somewhat at the contact area and the race is dented. These cyclical flats and dents (they grow and disappear with each revolution) places stress on the steel that deforms/relaxes deforms/relaxes etc etc as the wheel turns. Eventually the steel fatigues and small flakes peel off, leaving the bearing rough and contaminated with bits of steel. This process is inevitable but if the bearing is too small for the job, the deformations are too large to remain under the steel's fatigue limit.

Further, the durability of the bearing is determined by the longevity of the grease. Each bearing is packed with grease which is kept inside by two seals. These seals are visible as coloured plastic rings or as two metal rings, depending on the requirement for the bearing. As I previously explained in either this thread or a another currently active one, the plastic seal cannot run on a dry surface. It will simply abrade away like a pencil rubber rubbed on a smooth table top. Therefore the seal is designed so that some of the grease inside the bearing escapes from under its lip and migrates outwards. This increases the seal life since it now runs on a layer of grease instead of dry. It also means that the grease is a consumable with a finite life. The obvious solution to make the grease last longer is to pack more of it in. It works, but this increases drag. In some applications, including bicycle wheels (bar one exception) this drag is absolutely meaningless in the bigger scheme of things. We create more air drag on our bicycles at 1 mile per hour than the bearing grease creates. However, the slightest bit of drag multiplied by two - there are two bearings in a freewheel - causes the freewheel to stick and throw the chain forward. Thus, freewheel bearings have to be very loose. The ideal bicycle bearing then would be one with say 30% grease in for the freewheels and another one for the hub with say 70% grease in. This would make sense because a freewheel bearing only works when you freewheel. When you pedal, both the inner and outer race rotates so the bearing doesn't actually work. But, they are not manufactured that specifically for bicycles.

I've previously explained how a single seal cannot separate two liquids. However, I'm yet to see a bicycle wheel company other than Suntour in its day that understood this principle and put in a second labyrinth seal to protect the catridge bearing from water. On its own a cartridge bearing cannot tolerate water. It needs extra protection.

Deep groove cartridge bearings manufactured in their millions for general purpose use in machinery, appliances, cars, hoovers, trolleys...you name it. They're come in zillions of sizes, two seal varieties (contactless and contact) and in a range of grades which relates to surface smoothness. But the one thing in common with all these bearings is that they are not designed for lateral loading, as in bicycle wheels. They are designed for straight-ahead running. A good example would be a bench grinder. The wheel spins radially and receives no axial loading at all. A car wheel receives huge axial loading when the car corners and its wheel bearings are therefore Angular contact bearings, not deep groove bearings. A deep groove bearing performs very poorly in lateral loading. If you just cup your hands in two Cs facing each other and imagine the ball running that groove and then offset the two grooves, you can see what happens to the ball. This is what happens in bicycle wheels and hence, the bearing doesn't live long.

Bicycle wheel manufacturers choose cartridge bearings nevertheless because this puts the bearing manufacturing in the hands of someone else. They use off-the-shelf products to save money. Good wheels have ACBs (angular contact bearings) which can be adjusted for play. The leader in that game is Campagnolo, followed by Shimano. Campag has the best system because it allows the user to buy the individual bearing races and replace them when they are damaged. Shimano doesn't have a replaceable race and if the race (not cone or ball) is damaged, it is time for a new hub. The reason Shimano doesn't do replaceable races is because of a Campagnolo patent that prevents them from doing so. Nevertheless a Shimano hub is still better than any cartridge bearing hub.

Some cartridge bearing hub manufacturers do use larger bearings to try and compensate for the problem but in reality, even a huge bearing and stacking up to five of hem on the axle (Hope does this), still doesn't improve the situation. Hope bearings live margninally longer than AC bearings.

Mavic attempted to get past the problem by offering an adjustable deep groove bearing system but this poses other problems, not the least of which is its poor understading of the second seal, mechanic ignorance about adjusting and in some cases, a "cone" that can only be used once.

In spite of all the evidence against cartridge bearing wheels, consumers will keep on buying them and keep dissing cup and cone bearings. The best wheel is the one that weighs the least, as we can see from the wheel review article in a post above. That is, until the bearings fail or spokes break.
 
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Location
Loch side.
I'd just like to add, at the risk of being considered presumptious, to @Yellow Saddle 's diatribe (all good stuff and illuminating btw):

"We liked the Victory 30, a good looking, free rolling wheel (12) that held firm under the weight of a large test pilot. A longer test to establish the longevity of the front bearing would allow us to recommend them wholeheartedly." (13)

12) The hefty, powerful test pilot is back again in this paragraph and recons (sic) the wheels are pretty. I can't argue with that but I can ask what the hell ‘free-rolling’ means? Don't all wheels roll freely until you apply the brake?

13) On what basis should the tester make such an assumption (that a longer test would establish the (small) front bearing’s longevity – it wouldn’t: quite the reverse, and one might assume that the reviewer's experience would mean he/she knows this), let alone share it?

Keep on adding. I believe with a bit of critical analysis most of these articles can be shown to have more flaws than truths. Bicycle journalism is very, very poor, worse than motoring journalism I reckon (I've just un-sic'd myself) that says a lot.
 
Thanks for explaining - but can I just persist in asking - assuming all materials and build quality were identical, and all parts, assemblages etc were fit for purpose and of at least a workable size for the job required of them, ie there were no variation except in the diameter and number of bearings, and assuming that all the bearings were single sealed cartridge type - what would make the 28/22 mm two-bearing setup (ie the Mavic Aksium) better or worse than 4x 17 mm bearings (ie the AC Victory)?

Tar
BB
 

Tim Hall

Guest
Location
Crawley
Yes, I say, and utter a long, deep satisfied sigh before rearing up and moving onto my next favourite pet hate - people in supermarkets who organize reunions and gatherings right in the front doorway, completely oblivious that the space is generally reserved for passing through.
I don't think you should confine that to supermarkets. Offices, schools, bike shops, pubs, houses all have doors. It's the one part of a room you can guarantee people have to go through.

<aux armes, citoyens>
 
Location
Loch side.
Thanks for explaining - but can I just persist in asking - assuming all materials and build quality were identical, and all parts, assemblages etc were fit for purpose and of at least a workable size for the job required of them, ie there were no variation except in the diameter and number of bearings, and assuming that all the bearings were single sealed cartridge type - what would make the 28/22 mm two-bearing setup (ie the Mavic Aksium) better or worse than 4x 17 mm bearings (ie the AC Victory)?

Tar
BB
Bigger is better, but only slightly. However, the bigger bearings are (should be if the retailer is not playing games) cheaper. Miniature cartridge bearings are really expensive. The reason I say only slightly is because both still suffer from tracks going out of alignment with lateral loads. Sometime in the past I have written about this here and drawn a sketch to illustrate the problem with deep groove bearings in wheels. Perhaps if you search for "deep groove" with me as the author you will find it.
 
Bigger is better, but only slightly. However, the bigger bearings are (should be if the retailer is not playing games) cheaper. Miniature cartridge bearings are really expensive. The reason I say only slightly is because both still suffer from tracks going out of alignment with lateral loads. Sometime in the past I have written about this here and drawn a sketch to illustrate the problem with deep groove bearings in wheels. Perhaps if you search for "deep groove" with me as the author you will find it.

Without going searching right now but on the principle you've established in numerous other posts, that you can exclude variables from different scenarios where the variable is the same in each scenario, what I'm trying to establish (asking you to tell) is what exactly is that slight difference if quantified. Let's assume the only type of bearing in existence is a single seal cartridge type - then what is the measurable difference between a 28/22 mm pair and 4x 17 mm?

Thanks in advance

BB
 
Location
Loch side.
Without going searching right now but on the principle you've established in numerous other posts, that you can exclude variables from different scenarios where the variable is the same in each scenario, what I'm trying to establish (asking you to tell) is what exactly is that slight difference if quantified. Let's assume the only type of bearing in existence is a single seal cartridge type - then what is the measurable difference between a 28/22 mm pair and 4x 17 mm?

Thanks in advance

BB
The contact patch between ball and race is what you have to take into consideration. Bigger bearings carry loads better than smaller ones. However, the OD alone doesn't tell you much about the size of the ball. For instance, in a Cannondale Lefty headset there is an almighty cartridge bearing with an OD of 50 or 52mm, however, the ID is say only 46mm (I'm guess the exact sizes here) which makes the balls really tiny. Although there are more of them than in a bearing with the same ball size but much smaller OD, it is still a less durable bearing than one with a 52mm OD and say 10mm ID.
Mavic and Campag use this to some extent of sensibility in some of their steel axle hubs where the axle itself is just 10 or 8mm but the bearing that fits on it is relatively beefy, a 6001 or similar, I think. Large OD bearings with lots of small balls also have less space available for packing grease.

As an aside, a single seal cartridge bearing is a stupid idea even though it is in use on some bicycle wheels. A seal does two things:
1) It half-seals the grease inside from escaping and half-seals the water outside from entering.
2) It acts as a wall alongside the bearing balls which churn up the grease and prevents the grease from settling outside the reach of the ball's recycling ability.

The photo below demonstrates what happens if you remove one seal in a greased bearing. The grease settles out of reach of the balls and shears into two rings with a gap in the shear line. The grease in this bearing is useless since it is not making contact with the races and balls. Obviously if the bearing is running in a bath of filtered oil, the seals re superfluous.

Cartridge bearing with missing seal (1).jpg
 
Location
Loch side.
Deep Groove bearings.jpg


I found the drawing I made some time ago for a previous discussion on deep groove ball bearings.
In figure one I have drawn a deep groove bearing that's loaded in the way it was designed for. The arrow on top and bottom indicates the direction of forces it was designed for. Ignore the arrow on the right, that is just for the label.
In the second drawing is a angular contact bearing showing all the directions of force it can handle.
In the third drawing I have attempted to show what happens to a nice round ball if you load a deep groove bearing laterally. It gets pinched inside the race.

Since the question relates to size, you can scale the scenario down (i.e. make your bearing smaller) but keep the force the same. Compare that to a large bearing with larger contact areas and still the same forces.
 

Nibor

Bewildered
Location
Accrington
Op , i got a full set of front and rear wheel bearings fron SKF for about 25 quid..
just order the size stamped on the bearing..from a quality manufacturer bearing wholesale etc
Or look on yell for your local Bearing Factor these guys rely on local business just like your LBS and are very knowlegable and competitive generally.
 
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