We really are treated as the poor cousin aren't we?

[ComedyPilot]

Whilst I understand your point @Leodis, I have to tell you I saw loads of people on road bikes in the Netherlands out training, but they stayed away from the inner city/town paths, and could be seen bombing along large rural paths like this

The one above is 18 miles long which I'm sure you will agree is more than long enough for a club run to get up to steam on and practice position drills, sprints and whatever they do? Show me a segregated, wide, road bike friendly, safe path such as the above in the UK and I'm a monkey's uncle.

Other than that they used small rural roads just like (we) you would do in the UK.

 

[Leodis]

Whilst I understand your point @Leodis, I have to tell you I saw loads of people on road bikes in the Netherlands out training, but they stayed away from the inner city/town paths, and could be seen bombing along large rural paths like this

So people wanting to cycle through a town or city have to cycle at 5mph or there abouts, limited to a cycle network rather than the open free road? Why would you not want to change driver awareness and laws protecting cyclists and have on road facilities rather than head-in-sand and build off road in the hope some people start cycling?

The roads are for everyone and by being passive and moving bikes off the roads not only endangers road cyclists more (due to less cyclists on the roads) it gives drivers more right to think they own the roads.

That said I do like the network in Holland of priority of cyclists at junctions and roundabouts.

 

[BentMikey]

Noticed when watching a Dutch cycling video just now and did not see one road bike, love to see roadies travelling at 10 mph

You're mistaken mate, your perception is wrong. I think that the club rider scene in NL is far larger than here in the UK, and there are plenty of fast riders out. There's no problem training at speed in the Netherlands.

 

[BentMikey]

So people wanting to cycle through a town or city have to cycle at 5mph or there abouts, limited to a cycle network rather than the open free road?

This bit is nonsense. In most towns you can ride at considerably more than 5mph. You're not always limited to the cycle network by any means.

Why would you not want to change driver awareness and laws protecting cyclists and have on road facilities rather than head-in-sand and build off road in the hope some people start cycling?.

Because your head is in the sand if you think that your approach will ever work. It has not worked, not anywhere in the world. Worse still, instead of most of the population cycling, your approach will prevent 98% of the population from ever cycling. I don't want anything like that.

You really have no clue how much better the Dutch setup is. Orders of magnitude better, so much so that you're unable to conceive of the difference.

 

[snorri]

if you create a separate network off road you then isolate road cyclists even more for the sake of a few parents been able to cycle with their children a couple of months a year.

Better to provide a network for parents, children and others to use throughout the year rather than cater for sport cyclists who are only visible on the roads for "a couple of months a year"..

 

[ComedyPilot]

With all massive due respect to 'roadies', the required infrastructure isn't going to be for you. It is needed to enable 'normal' people to do 'normal' riding. The largest group of people disenfranchised from cycling in the UK are not sports cyclists (although that number will increase), but utility cyclists. There are countless people who would/could/should cycle, but don't for one simple reason - they're scared. That is a frankly shameful position to be in considering we're supposed to be a civilised western democracy?

 

[MontyVeda]

The point being.....

The Dutch built a cycle lane where there was none.....the British went down B and Q and bought a pot of paint and ticked the job done box!

maybe I'm being thick... but I can't see any form of cycle-lane painted on the road in the RH pic... unless it's between those yellow lines.

 

[ComedyPilot]

There are a number of Dutch/British pics now on this thread, and the overwhelming indication is that (if provided at all) British cycle paths are box-ticking concilliatory (patronising) gestures rather than decent infrastructure.

 

[Hip Priest]

A question for those with experience of cycling in the Netherlands.

1) Is it legal to use the main carriageway when a cycle facility is present?
2) Would motorists react negatively to a cyclist doing the above?

 

[ComedyPilot]

A question for those with experience of cycling in the Netherlands.

1) Is it legal to use the main carriageway when a cycle facility is present?
2) Would motorists react negatively to a cyclist doing the above?

In my 'experience' :

1) Yes - some people used the road although most people used the paths.
2) No - I didn't see any negativity, but then again the moral position of a cyclist in the Netherlands is pretty much where vehicle drivers find themselves in the UK at the moment. There are any number of stories in the NL where drivers coming into conflict with cyclists get hauled over the coals (rightly).



The actual legality of road riding/cycle path proximity is best left to actual Dutch residents to answer. I'll try to find out, but could be a while....

But, in reality (and this is purely my opinion) why, if there is perfectly adequate infrastructure provided, would one want to mix with motorised traffic?

 

[snorri]

How I longed to be mixing it with the lorries on the other side of the barrier instead of being confined to this cycle path, not.

 

[Leodis]

How I longed to be mixing it with the lorries on the other side of the barrier instead of being confined to this cycle path, not.

It looks wonderful for cycling but no government in the UK is going to spend the money needed to build and maintain this level of infrastructure imho.

 

[snorri]

It looks wonderful for cycling but no government in the UK is going to spend the money needed to build and maintain this level of infrastructure imho.

The government has spent the money to build our present cycle hostile network, time now to reverse the trend perhaps?

 

[Jezston]

I don't follow this Dutch thing, so perhaps those who've cycled there can clarify things for me?

This bit is nonsense. In most towns you can ride at considerably more than 5mph. You're not always limited to the cycle network by any means.

But will that work in the UK? Already we get enough abuse and punishment passes for 'not using the cycle lane'. If we get more cycle lanes, at 'the cost of millions to the taxpayer', won't we just get more abuse and danger if we ride in the 'car lanes'?

Because your head is in the sand if you think that your approach will ever work. It has not worked, not anywhere in the world. Worse still, instead of most of the population cycling, your approach will prevent 98% of the population from ever cycling. I don't want anything like that.

You really have no clue how much better the Dutch setup is. Orders of magnitude better, so much so that you're unable to conceive of the difference.

Aren't cities in Holland orders of magnitude smaller than cities in London?

I can understand people willing to tootle along on dutch bikes at 5mph if they've only got to go a couple of miles max, but i cannot possibly fathom Regular Joe wanting to get on a bike to tootle 10 miles across London to get to work - that would take hours. The only people who would do that are fast riders that won't be able to share the cycle paths with the tootlers.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

How I longed to be mixing it with the lorries on the other side of the barrier instead of being confined to this cycle path, not.

Is this a whole road only for bikes @snorri ? With hard shoulder too?